Pull Cord Pros and Cons

[JSDeSalme]

Anyone know of a good diagram and different setups with the pull cord method? I've seen doubled knots with washers and rapides to locking carabiners and rapides.
Joe

[rcwild]

There are pros and cons to using pull cords. The major advantage is the ability to travel lighter. If the longest rappel in a canyon is 200 feet, you can carry one 200-foot rope and one lightweight 200-foot cord, saving around 10-15 pounds.

But there is a very significant downside. If anyone needs help while rapping on the rope, you won't have any rescue options with your cord. Similarly, if your rope is damaged during the trip, you will not have a back-up.

If you understand the risks and still choose to use a pull-cord, setting it up is simple. In essence, you are using a knot to "block" the rope from passing through the rappel ring, then rappelling on the single strand of rope. Using a washer is totally unnecessary. Some people rappel on the rope and cord together. Either way, be sure the knot connecting the rope and cord is on the pull-cord side of the rappel ring.

[dekej]

I've seen related discussions elsewhere in the forum, but what is the preferred knot(s) or method for joining two ropes (a rap rope and a pull cord) with dissimilar diameters?

[ratagonia]

I've seen related discussions elsewhere in the forum, but what is the preferred knot(s) or method for joining two ropes (a rap rope and a pull cord) with dissimilar diameters?

I have some pictures of using a pull-cord here, at the bottom:

http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/blocks.php

Tying ropes of dissimilar diameter together requires better knots than ropes of the same size. I suggest an EDK backed up with an EDK. Leave long tails.

http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/tying.php

Rich's concerns about just bringing a pull-cord should be emphasized. If the canyon has 4, 200-foot rappels - bring two real ropes. If it has ONE - probably take a pull cord. Consider how much carrying power you have, and how far from the road you are.

Tom

[rcwild]

The use of pull cords is very common among canyoneers. Using them allows you to travel with a lighter load. Longest rappel in the canyon is 100 feet? No need to carry a heavy 200-foot rope. Carry a 100-foot rope, plus a light 100-foot pull cord -- accessory cord, parachute cord, etc. You can use the 100-foot rope alone on all drops less than 50 feet. Bring out the pull cord for longer drops.

Sounds like a good idea -- and it is -- sometimes. But consider the fact that in lightening your load you are sacrificing options. Can you perform a rescue with that pull cord? Rappel on it to get to your partner? Use it as a backup when your primary rope is damaged?

Common for larger groups to carry multiple ropes when doing canyons with several drops one right after another. Can a pull cord be used in place of one or more of these ropes? Of course. But be aware of how and where you use it/them. If a pull cord is used on the rappels in front, a rope from the back can be brought forward for rescue if necessary. If it is used in the back of the line, it will be more difficult to bring a rope back up from the front.

Do you really need to consider the possibility of a rescue? No, you can gamble that nothing will go wrong.

My personal preference is to use a 9mm+ diameter rope for my main rope and an 8mm Canyon Pro (or similar) as my back-up rope and pull cord. Canyon Pro can be used for rescue if necessary.

There are other uses for a pull cord. Raising, lowering and "zipping" packs. Some pull cords can be used to belay down climbs.

Having said all this, I consider it a good idea to always carry some kind of pull cord. I carry a small river rescue throw bag in the hood of my pack. It contains about 60 feet or rope. One of its most common uses is extending the pull side of my rope when it isn't quite long enough to reach.

Example: I heard the longest rappel is 100 feet, so I brought my 200-foot rope. Then discover the longest rappel is 110 feet (or my rope is really only 190 feet). Rappel side of rope is set to the full length of the rappel and blocked. Pull side is too short, so rescue rope is attached and tossed to the ground. Rescue? I make my partners promise not to get in trouble on the bottom 10-20 feet of the rappel. ;)

[wiese]

i am looking for where i can get a tag/pull cord that is 3-5mm, polyester core and that i can get in 400' lengths.

thanks for the time

take care
EW

random pull cord threads:
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1282&highlight=pull+cord
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1168&highlight=pull+cord

[wiese]

........... Sterling makes them (poly/poly static mm cords). comes in spoils of 200meters or 50meters or by the foot.

if anyone ever needs a tag/pull cord contact Clark. He will take care of you, just let him know i sent ya. I am not working here at the moment but they will take care of ya.

www.rockcreek.com (http://www.rockcreek.com)
or at
info@rockcreek.com
or at
888-707-6708

they will drop ship it right to your door from sterling with in days.

take care
EW

PS long high end pull cords are not cheap

[SirKnotcelot]

For lightness of being and flotation AND low-stretch/abrasion resistance,
might something from the arborist world do?

--to wit: www.wesspur.com/Throw-line/zing-it-throw-line.html

Elsewhere, I find a break strength for the 2.2mm line of 575#.

(-;

[wiese]

sirknotcelot

thanks for the link, may help others. i used the throw lines when i was worked in trees, but no longer in the trees after to many close calls with chainsaws.

i personally needed something of a bigger diameter and i ended up get 3, 400'ers of 4mm. the sterling poly/poly is unreal and would highly recommend it. i personally would not trust pulling a thousand footer on 2.2mm, but i have never tried it so who knows.

take care
EW

[cougarmagic]

What about this stuff?

http://tinyurl.com/yg9krv

Claims to be super strong, abrasion resistant, doesn't absorb water, and it floats...5oz for 100'. Not bad at all!

[rcwild]

Rich's concerns about just bringing a pull-cord should be emphasized. If the canyon has 4, 200-foot rappels - bring two real ropes. If it has ONE - probably take a pull cord.

This advice is 180 degrees off. If a canyon has only one 200-foot rappel, bring two real ropes.

If the canyon has multiple 200-foot rappels, it's okay to bring at least two real ropes and a pull cord. The pull cord may provide additional leap-frogging options when there are multiple rappels.

This idea of traveling with just the bare minimum of gear is going to get people in trouble. If you are carrying one real rope and it is damaged, will you finish the canyon rappelling on 6mm pull cord? If someone gets in trouble on rappel, will you do a rescue on 6mm pull cord?

[kuper]

Off topic, but not too far
Pullcords, What do some of you guys use as far as cord diameter on a 9mm rope? Does anyone use 550 cord?
Mike

[rcwild]

Years ago I carried 550 cord. Now I don't use pull cord, per se.

Longest drop in canyon is 100 feet. Carry 200 feet of rope. Real rope. If you carry 100 feet of real rope and 100 feet of pull cord and your real rope is compromised, will you finish the canyon rapping on 550 cord? If someone is rappelling on your real rope and needs help, will you perform the rescue with 550 cord? Will you rappel or perform a rescue with a 6mm pull cord? I hope the answer is no.

We encourage people to carry (for the example given above) 200 feet of primary rope, plus a 100-foot rescue rope.

In addition, I am carrying a throw bag with 55 feet of 7.5mm Hybrid PER (personal escape rope). Intended for use by firemen to escape from burning buildings. I am comfortable enough with its rated strength to use it in a pinch for rappelling or rescue. But I also use it as a rescue throw bag, for zipping packs, etc.

I also use it as an extension pull cord, i.e. rappel is 120 feet and we brought a 200-foot rope. Feed out 120 feet of rope and block it. Pull side is now 40 feet short. Extend the pull side with extension pull cord.

[charlybldr]

Mike,

Rich's points are all valid. That said, sometimes I've had occasion to use a pull cord.

In my experience, skinny pull cords like 550 Para cord or 3mm accessory cord are light and compact but because of their small diameter, can be difficult to "pull". Also, 550 cord can be very stretchy making the pull even more problematic.

Charly

[kuper]

Thanks, recently i set up what was supposed to be a 100' rapp. I had measured and checked the length and center mark on my rope so I thought I would be good to go. Once in place and the length set I saw that I would be about 15' short on the pull side with my 200' rope. I didnt want to attach my 120' back up of so I just used 550. The fact that it was a very short distance made me think it was okay but I wondered about similar situations with more distance. I guess to be safe I will just use my back up rope.
Thanks again
Good to hear from you Charly

[gunghoeel]

http://www.cbknot.com/TechCordNE.htm

5mm rope
5,000lb tensile strength
1.7lb/100ft


Expensive, but it looks like it's as strong or stronger than most 8 and 9mm ropes. Manufacturer says water resistant, abrasian resistant, and says can be used an an emergency rappelling line.

It's small and light. Do you think this is a good choice to bring as a pull cord which can double as an emergency rope?

[rcwild]

Do you think this is a good choice to bring as a pull cord which can double as an emergency rope?

It has the strength ... but ... rappelling on 5mm cord?

[cookiecutter]

It has the strength ... but ... rappelling on 5mm cord?


Would you trust it to lower someone on rappel in a contingency anchor set up?

[rcwild]

Would you trust it to lower someone on rappel in a contingency anchor set up?

A true contingency would be rigged with the primary rope. 100 foot drop should be set with a 200 foot primary rope.

If you are using a second rope -- a rescue rope -- you are getting into a more complex rescue scenario. Would I do it with a 5mm cord? Not me. Even if it is strong enough, you have to be very careful to rig enough friction. Plus, 5mm provides very little margin of error if there are abrasion issues.

I'm using a 7.5mm cord BlueWater makes called Hybrid PER. They make it for firemen to bail out of burning buildings. I call it canyon cord on my online store. Haven't been pushing it much yet, but I've used it enough now that I am comfortable recommending it.

[cookiecutter]

Cool, thanks for the tips

[perfectoval]

Good observations Rich. Typically, I carry a 70m x 9mm static (polypro core) rope plus a 30m x 9mm rope plus a friends pull cord (60m). Having the short one is great for most of the short, easy drops. Having the long one many times allows both strands to hit the bottom and set up two single strand rap lines.

Personally, I think that the most important thing for a pull cord is how much elongation it has. I've used different types of pull cords... imo, the nylon core ones have too much stretch... seems like it makes it easier for the biner block/EDK knot to get wedged tighter or hung up on a snag. I really like the super-low stretch static lines, preferrably non-nylon.

Just my 2cents.

[djoshshelton]

Got an email and an interesting question from a buddy earlier today. Thought this would be the place to get some answers. I don't know enough about stretch to say with certainty, but 30% seems like a dump-load of stretch, even for a pull-chord. This is what he sent me:

I was talking to a guy we were helping to move on Friday of last week after our trip. He had some paracord in the front seat of his truck, he is in the National Guard, and we were using it to tie things down. I asked him what the breaking strength was. He told me it is 550 cord, 550 lb. breaking strength, and that he has repelled with the stuff. No I don’t want to use it for rappelling. I don’t know what the breaking strength is for you pull cord but I think 550 lbs would do it. Anyway, I did a little research for weight etc and this is what I found:
(TYPE III)
Min. Breaking Strength: 550 lbs;
Min. Elongation: 30%;
Min. Length per pound: 225 ft/69 m;
Core Yarns: 7-9;
Sheath Structure: 32/1 or 36/1.
<O:p</O:pAny red flags here? Thanks in advance:
Josh</O:p<O:p<O:p</O:p</O:p

[rgbrengle]

Josh,
Your use of the para cord (tieing things down) is probably its best non-parachute application. It's use as a pull-cord might work on occasion but overall will be less than satisfactory. Many say don't use pullcord at all, take a real rope (generally this means 8mm min) not para-cord or accessory cord. That way the pull cord is a spare rope that you could utilize if your main rope gets cut, stuck or lost in the bottom of a pool.

With para-cord in a 200' pull you will have up to 60' of just stretch. Wow! You might be able to live with that but the abrasion and/or cut resistance of that tensioned cord is another matter. Test this yourself by moving the cord side to side over a rock or concrete if rock isn't handy while tensioned at say 200 lbs.

Bottom line: Its not a good idea.

[rcwild]

I just merged four threads about pull cords. There are pros and cons to using any kind of pull cord. You will find the arguments in this thread.

Regarding 550 cord specifically ...

Thin and hard to grasp for hard pulls. Can overcome this problem by pulling through a munter hitch so the hitch does much of the holding for you.

All nylon construction makes it too stretchy. Adds to the difficulty in pulling.

[rcwild]

If you absolutely must use pull cord, here are two options:

1. BlueWater 7.5mm Hybrid PER
Strength: 3372 lbs
Weight: 2.68 lbs per 100 feet
Price: $0.89 per foot
Costs more, but very versatile. Meets NFPA specs as a personal escape rope. Not recommended as your primary canyon rope, but you can rappel on it in an emergency. Strong enough to be used for pig rig haul systems. Also comes in handy for zip lining packs, quickie belays, etc.

I sell the Hybrid PER through my online store as Canyon Cord (http://www.canyonsandcrags.com/servlet/the-Rope-%26-Cord/Categories).

2. Imlay 6mm polyester pull cord
Strength: 2200 lbs
Weight: 2.31 lbs per 100 feet
Price: $0.42 per foot
Cheap, but single-purpose. For use as pull cord only. Do not rappel on it. Do not attempt rescues with it.

[thafen]

Strong enough to be used for pig rig haul systems.

I guess thats what you are talking about?
http://www.rescuerigger.com/images/Sample-3-to-1-Pig.gif

[thafen]

I can't wait for the Advanced Canyoneering Course.

[bbjones]

.

Thin and hard to grasp for hard pulls. Can overcome this problem by pulling through a munter hitch so the hitch does much of the holding for you.


I have seen and experienced over gripping trying to pull a haul bag when we went with skinny ropes on big walls before. One of my climbing partners has huge hands and he was always complaining about his hands hurting when he had to pull or haul.

You don't want to damage those tendon pulleys or the joints in your hands. (speaking from experience)

I use my belay/rappel device to eliminated the problem entirely when the pull is difficult.

Brandt

[rcwild]

I guess thats what you are talking about?

Yep. Your illustration shows a 3:1 pig rig haul system on the right and a 2 prusik belay on a load releasing hitch on the left.

[sonnylawrence]

I have seen and experienced over gripping trying to pull a haul bag when we went with skinny ropes on big walls before.
For SAR we figure the average person, just standing, not walking, can grip an 11 mm rope and pull 50 pounds worth.