descenders

[bigdaddy]

I'm gearing up for my first canyoning trip next May, and would like some input on a good choice for a descender. The pirana looks interesting, but I haven't seen any reviews on it. I would like to get something fairly soon, so I can be familiar with using it in different situations.

thanks

[rcwild]

Be sure to qualify the advice you receive from other people. The descender that works perfectly for a 110 pound person with a high skill level won't necessarily be the best choice for a 220 pound beginner.

Your decision should be based on a couple factors; (1) your experience level, and (2) the diameter rope you will be using. A person with a high degree of expertise can work with virtually any device on any rope diameter. A beginner will need a device that can provide more control, especially on skinny ropes.

The Pirana is an all-around good choice because it allows the user to make adjustments before and during a rappel. It was designed primarily for French canyoning technique, which is almost always single-rope. On double-strand it works well on diameters up to about 10mm. When using thicker ropes, it can be difficult to feed two strands.

[sonnylawrence]

There is nothing to beat experience! Take for example, the experience of dropping your rappel device off a 10,000 foot cliff. Then what do you do? I grew up with the Duffersitz. I still use it at times. I play with many different devices as I get a chance, just to see how they are subtlely different. That allows me to understand the concept of the device rather than just memorize how to connect to it. Minor changes in width or length or angle of exit of the rope or how many carabiners are used to attach it or wet vs. dry rope, etc., all affect how they work. For general mountaineering, I carry an ATC-XP. It is light, small and has great versatility. For caves I use a rack. If I had to pick one device that could easily and safely do all in canyons I think I would pick the Pirana. But alas, everything is a trade off! My basement is full of toys. Good ballast.

It is fun to teach people to rappel. After they are comfortable with a tuber device like the ATC-XP, I hand them some wierd looking thing from the Dark Ages. A person who understands the principles often can figure out how the wierd device works. But of course, when pressed to rappel in the night, hypothermic, one hand tied behind your back; it is best to use the device you are most familiar with.

[rcwild]

I've found the Pirahna difficult to figure out the correct mode to use. This seems to be the experience of many people - they sometimes set it up a little loose and scare themselves.

Tom


For anyone willing to invest 5 minutes reading the instructions, the Pirana is very simple to use. And one big advantage is the ability to add friction mid-rappel if it wasn't rigged with enough at the top.

I'll reiterate my suggestion to qualify the advice you receive. Tom has met people who have had trouble with the Pirana. I've met many people who have had trouble with, and hate the ATC XP, including one person who lost control 30 feet off the deck and hit the ground hard.

What were the variables involved? Body weight? Experience level? Training? Rope diameter? Just because one person likes or doesn't like a device doesn't mean his/her recommendation will apply to you. Advice received from me is no exception.

In ACA courses, we teach multiple solutions to problems so students can pick the one that feels right for them. You should do the same when choosing a rappelling device. Try several. Learn to use them all correctly. Then choose. Don't make your decision based solely on opinions you read on the internet.

Rich

[mtngoat59102]

Hello, I'm the guy who fell and almost broke my back while using my ATC-XP. The number one thing that you will find with the above device is that it has less and less friction the more it becomes worn. (on the high-friction side)

Not to mention it makes a great paper weight and that is about all. Fooling aside, I still use an ATC from time to time ... just beware of the design flaw in the ATC-XP. The friction will be greatly reduced after time (sand) has worn away at the 'teethed grooves'. The scary thing about this is on what 200' rappel is it going to be a lot faster than what you remember, I found this out the HARD way!

It is the only device I have used that loses the ability to hold a descender at the same friction as it wears. (food for thought)

"A poor workman blames his tools." ~ words to live by

[mtngoat59102]

Well, that is entirely possible. Everyone seems to experience everything differently. I know mulitple people who use the XP who have noticed a reduction in friction with wear, so I think it at least deserves mention. As long as you like what you use that is most important.

This subject has hit the more popular message boards and the reduction in friction on the grooved side of the XP seems to be the consensus, even amoung it's fans YMMV.

[Dinosaur]

Two questions regarding the Pirahna.

1) When should the device be replaced? I've got some pretty good sized rope grooves worn into the pirahna. I could trade with a left handed user to take advantage of the other side of the device, but having grooves in anything this important is pretty freaky. When is enough enough?

2) How hot is too hot? On rappells greater than about 75' the pirahna, and carabiner its clipped to, get pretty darn hot- too hot to touch. I realize the metal parts can take a lot of heat, but what about the belay loop of a harness? What about the rope melt point if you should tie off for awhile? Is this even a consideration?

Thanks!

[mountain man]

Two questions regarding the Pirahna.

1) When should the device be replaced? I've got some pretty good sized rope grooves worn into the pirahna. I could trade with a left handed user to take advantage of the other side of the device

Or you could extend the life of your device a little further and learn how to rap left handed for short drops. That's what I'm doing now.

If your rope grooves ever get sharp, it might be a good time to retire ASAP.

I can't give a good tech answer. I'll let others do that for you.

[vlrocco]

Two questions regarding the Pirahna.

1) When should the device be replaced? I've got some pretty good sized rope grooves worn into the pirahna. I could trade with a left handed user to take advantage of the other side of the device, but having grooves in anything this important is pretty freaky. When is enough enough?


I know that the Pirana is relatively expensive at $35 but the same advice applies here as when people ask me how much to spend on a motorcycle helmet; How much is your head worth? With a rappel device we are talking about the other end of your anatomy.
Why take a chance? If the grooves are "pretty good sized" enough to make you ask the question $35 can put your mind at ease.:)

[Fire Rescue]

My personal opinion about descenders is under 150' use an 8 like device (piranhas are nice) over 150' I recommend using a device with more friction such as a rack or mini-rack with a hyper bar or 2 (possibly even the totem, I haven't played with one yet, so I don't really know how well you can friction it up)

Also, as a lot of people have been saying your weight and diameter of rope will play a large roll in what device you will use. Myself, I weight about 200 lbs and use 9mm rope (on my own time not with the FD) and I just feel a lot safer using a mini-rack with 2 hyperbars (for more than 100'), not to mention the rack is easier to lock off if you need to.

[Parker]

Another thing to try that I have become a big supporter of is the modified Z-rig:
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2978&highlight=z-rig
You can do it with any descending device and make as much, or as little friction as you want. It is easy to lock off as well (poor man's mini-rack). Works great on long raps and free hangs that tend to get less friction towards the end of the rap.
I also like the control with using it. I don't typically like using gloves and have found the heat to be far less on long raps.

[Dinosaur]

I know that the Pirana is relatively expensive at $35 but the same advice applies here as when people ask me how much to spend on a motorcycle helmet; How much is your head worth? With a rappel device we are talking about the other end of your anatomy.
Why take a chance? If the grooves are "pretty good sized" enough to make you ask the question $35 can put your mind at ease.:)

You are correct. The point of my asking was for ease of mind. :)

The fact that rope grooves even exist on a device such as this seems a bit bothersome to anyone with incipient paranoia to all things height related. In order to keep ones paranoia in check (and dozens of pirahna devices avoiding premature retirement as wind chimes and drink coasters)- it only seems reasonable that tolerances for groove depth had been developed.

With all the debate on Totem vs. Pirahna vs. Figure 8 vs. ATC vs. etc.... I had never heard anyone use usefull life expectancy as a selling point. As with our friend with the worn out ATC, and his dreadfull experience explained above, we learn quite clearly that they all will expire at some point. I would have thought that the Pirahna I bought in the spring would at least make it through the fall season.

I realize I may be asking an impossible question, but I was only hoping for a "best practice".

Also, whats this "rack" you guys are talking about? I like racks when it comes to ribs and bikinis.:chillin:

[damngreg1]

Had an encounter with someone using a figure 8 the other day. I tried to coax him into rigging with it always being attached to either the rope or carabiner and with the rope going over the top of the device instead of under it. I explained the pro's of rigging it that way. Especially the part about a tendency that if rigged with the rope going under the device, that there is a chance of it rolling up into a girth hitch when rappelling over a lip. He resisted because "it didn't look right" and was very nervous until he changed it back into his usual mode of rappelling. He then began his rappel, went over the lip and it rolled up into a girth hitch and left him dangling.

While hanging, he did mention that he had seen the light and was willing to change his ways.