Best Rappel Device; Best knots for joining ropes

[glennjd3]

I've gotten a lot of different advice from people on rappel devices through the years. Some say an ATC like the Black Diamond High Friction model are fine. Others say you should use a rack or figure 8 because it doesn't run abrasive rope over your biners. What's the consensus out there? I've used both and have had safe trips.

Also, I've heard on other forums some debate over the best knots to use for joining ropes. Some say the double fisherman's is fine, other's say a figure 8 with a safety knot on either side. I've still not been able to trust my life to a the "European Death Knot" (they should have picked a better name)--but some guys I know swear by it. What do the pros say?

[rcwild]

Consensus? We ain't got no consensus.

There are pros and cons to any rappel/belay device you choose. And there are several variables that will effect performance -- your weight, the diameter of your ropes, and whether you use double or single rope techniques. I happen to prefer figure eights for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't mean it will be the best choice for you.

During ACA courses, we let students try several different devices so they can decide what is most comfortable for them. But it is a good idea that you learn how to use them all. Someday you may have a partner that uses something different than you. You should know how it works so you can do your buddy checks.

Same kind of answer regarding knots. We all have our favorites. Pros and cons to each. Double fisherman works. Argument against is usually that it can be hard to untie and may be prone to getting stuck in cracks, etc. Rethreaded figure eight works. Not really necessary to tie backup knots as long as you have adequate tail. A bit easier to untie than the double fisherman, but still has bulky profile so prone to getting stuck. I've used a square knot -- absolutely critical that it be backed up on both sides. I use fisherman knots for the backups. Very easy to untie. Still bulky.

The EDK was probably named by American climbers trying to get even with Europeans for naming the American Death Triangle. With adequate tail -- 18 to 24 inches -- it is secure. Rides flat on the rock when pulling your ropes down so it is not as likely to get stuck.

Learn the right way to tie them all. Pick your favorite and master it -- in the dark, blindfolded, frozen fingers trembling ...

[jwurst]

Just my 2 cents...

I'm not concerned about rope abrasion on my biner. They aren't that expensive to replace.

I find racks to be truely magnificent, but not very useful for canyoning. I use a BMS Micro Rack for caving but it only accomodates a single rope. Larger racks are a nuisance to haul. Maybe it would be worth it if you were going to do a very long drop.

8's never suited me much. At least on the ones I've used I didn't get enough friction. They work well for many other people and there are ways to add more fiction. I use a tube (ATC type) device when I want to travel light.

[skianddive]

I am certainly no expert, but I will speak from some experience and say that I preferred a Figure 8 to an ATC in these 2 recent situations:

1. While rappelling in a canyon where there was water and the rope got wet, it swelled slightly and this made it difficult to get it through the ATC slot. This was exacerbated by cold hands.

2. While setting up for a rappel with a brand new dry 10mm+ rope, I found it difficult again to get the rope into the ATC.

Multiply these efforts by 2 if using a double-rope.

Since timeliness can be a concern in canyons, I would opt for the Figure 8 in most sitiuations.

[glennjd3]

I am certainly no expert, but I will speak from some experience and say that I preferred a Figure 8 to an ATC in these 2 recent situations:

1. While rappelling in a canyon where there was water and the rope got wet, it swelled slightly and this made it difficult to get it through the ATC slot. This was exacerbated by cold hands.

2. While setting up for a rappel with a brand new dry 10mm+ rope, I found it difficult again to get the rope into the ATC.

Multiply these efforts by 2 if using a double-rope.

Since timeliness can be a concern in canyons, I would opt for the Figure 8 in most sitiuations.

Wow.....What kind of rope were you using? I've used ATCs with the Canyon Pro 9.2 and never had a problems in very wet conditions.

[skianddive]

Wow.....What kind of rope were you using? I've used ATCs with the Canyon Pro 9.2 and never had a problems in very wet conditions.

I have no idea on the kind of rope - only that it was 10mm+. I doubt it was a Canyon Pro.

And as I said, cold hands could have exacerbated the problem. But it was a real-life situation under less than perfect conditions, and that's how people learn the advantages and disadvantages of their equipment.

[dccampen]

The EDK was probably named by American climbers trying to get even with Europeans for naming the American Death Triangle. With adequate tail -- 18 to 24 inches -- it is secure.
To be clear about this, are you talking about using a figure-8 or overhand knot. My understanding was that the figure-8 would unroll much more easily and that an overhand knot should be used. Thus, when someone says EDK I think of 2 ropes joined by tying the parallel strands using a figure-8. When you say EDK which do you mean?

[canyon_admin]

Overhand knot tied in two parallel ropes.

[mtngoat59102]

Hope this helps: EDK=overhand knot

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/JoinRopes.htm

A 'double overhand' is in frequent use where another overhand is tied immediately on top of the original overhand knot thus backing up the original knot and making it almost impossible for the knot to roll if tied correctly.

Note, when tightening up or dressing an overhand knot pull all four individual strands of rope running into the knot to firm it up. EDK's are good knots if tied correctly, a poorly tied one can kill you. (hence the name)

[dccampen]

Hope this helps: EDK=overhand knot

http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/JoinRopes.htm

I scanned this link but don't see where it assigns the equivalence "EDK=overhand knot".

Edit:
But, scanning the internet, I see where the overhand knot version is frequently called an EDK.

[dccampen]

Overhand knot tied in two parallel ropes.
So, does two parallel ropes tied with a figure-8 have a name?

[canyon_admin]

So, does two parallel ropes tied with a figure-8 have a name?


Yes, it's called DANGEROUS!

[mtngoat59102]

Yes, it's called DANGEROUS!

Question ... Where did you hear that tying a figure 8 with two parallel strands was an option? YIKES. There is a great and inexpensive book out there named, "Knots for Climbers" by Craig Lubben (falcon press)

Own it, it's worth the $7.

[dccampen]

Question ... Where did you hear that tying a figure 8 with two parallel strands was an option? YIKES.
Um, no, that is not what I said.

[hank_moon]

Um, no, that is not what I said.

Hey, is this the same Dave Campen on the NSS board - hello and welcome either way! :)

[dccampen]

Hi Hank,

Yep, the one and same Dave Campen from the NSS forum. :)

[johnswelchvi]

On the question of joining ropes, here are three links to pretty good evaluations of knot strength and tendency to get stuck: http://www.bwrs.org.au/research/index.html and http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html, http://www.needlesports.com/advice/abseilknots.htm. There was a fourth in German, but the page has recently disappeared. They had suggested a flat double fisherman is the way to go. A picture of this knot can be found on the bottom of the first link. If anyone knows of any other studies, please let me know.

Most of the evals suggest the EDK is the knot of choice. However, you must leave long tails as this knot can roll. If you are a belt and suspenders kind of safety person, the needlesport study suggests you should add in a second overhand knot to prevent rolling altogether.

Another knot that I was shown when rock climbing, but I haven’t seen in the canyoneering pages, is a square knot with the ends tied off grapevine-style. Like the double-fisherman, this is a good knot for ropes of uneven width. It unties easily after being weighted, but like the double-fisherman, is at risk for sticking as it is bulky and has no flat area. In the strength evaluations I’ve seen, I have not seen this knot tested.

[rcwild]

When I'm not concerned about getting a bulky knot stuck, I often connect ropes with a square knot, backed up on both sides with barrel knots (aka grapevines). Secure and very easy to untie.

When I am concerned, I use an EDK.

[Kyrell]

Has anyone out there ever used the "Pirahna"? I have been using this for the last year and really like it. I am able to add more friction when I need it as well as lock off quickly and it's been great in double roping situations. I would be interested in knowing if anyone else has had good or bad experiences with this device.

[sonnylawrence]

I have been using the Petzl Pirahna. I like it. Too bad it wears so fast when used with a sandy rope. It helps to use a steel carabiner. I use a variety of rappel devices. I jump from one device to the next. Its not as though I have one favorite. I do a lot of rappeling. I feel comfortable with the different products.

However my wife only rappels a few times a year when she is in canyons. I was having difficulty finding a rappel device that she could use. She either had too much friction or not enough. She was leary of a regular figure 8. She tried the Pirahna at an ACA event and loved it. She is able to adjust the friction depending on type of rope, pack, etc. She feels comfortable locking it off for a changeover or to pass a knot. So for her, it is the best device she has ever used.

Too bad the Pirahnas are relatively difficult to obtain. It is not like going to any REI or Sport Chalet and picking up a tube device and carabiner. When I introduce people to rappeling, I usually suggest they get an ATC-XP. They are versatile and available. If they really get into canyoneering, it won't hurt to end up with extra gear, especially if they try some class C canyons.

[deacl]

I am certainly no expert, but I will speak from some experience and say that I preferred a Figure 8 to an ATC in these 2 recent situations:

1. While rappelling in a canyon where there was water and the rope got wet, it swelled slightly and this made it difficult to get it through the ATC slot. This was exacerbated by cold hands.

2. While setting up for a rappel with a brand new dry 10mm+ rope, I found it difficult again to get the rope into the ATC.

Multiply these efforts by 2 if using a double-rope.

Since timeliness can be a concern in canyons, I would opt for the Figure 8 in most sitiuations.

Hi,
I like your logic in favor of a figure 8, or at least having one along.

How do you untie when descending in deep (cold) water without drowning ( ;-) ) and without dropping your rappel device into the water?

I've thought that an ATC could have a small cord tied to the harness.
And the Petzl Pirana is passed over the biner, a little more forgiving of an error.

thanks for any help on this,
-deac

[ratagonia]

Hi,
I like your logic in favor of a figure 8, or at least having one along.

How do you untie when descending in deep (cold) water without drowning ( ;-) ) and without dropping your rappel device into the water?

I've thought that an ATC could have a small cord tied to the harness.
And the Petzl Pirana is passed over the biner, a little more forgiving of an error.

thanks for any help on this,
-deac

Probably about time you took a training course, Deac. There's techniques for avoiding these problems.

A "wet disconnect" can usually be avoided by setting the length of the rope. Set the rope so the end is just at the water, the victims just rappel off the end of the rope - no wet disconnect, no trouble.

Please do NOT tie your atc with a leash. The leash can get sucked into your rappel, locking you off. Very difficult to undo, unless you have those TiBlocks and a few slings at hand (which you should!).

If you ARE doing wet disconnects, just do it carefully and don't drop anything.

Your choice of rappel device is closely related to your choice of ropes, and your choice of canyon. For Class C canyon, yeah, Figure of Eights Rule, and the Pirahna is among the best! For Class A or B canyons, especially in the backcountry with long approaches, many people prefer smaller ropes (8mm and 9mm), rappel single strand, and find the ATC-XP to be the device of choice.

What is most important, and has been repeated ad-infinitum, is to make sure you know your chosen device backwards and forwards, know how to use it on different size ropes for different types of rappels, AND know how to use it on the rope you are using that day.

Tom

[rcwild]

Your choice of rappel device is closely related to your choice of ropes, and your choice of canyon. For Class C canyon, yeah, Figure of Eights Rule, and the Pirahna is among the best! For Class A or B canyons, especially in the backcountry with long approaches, many people prefer smaller ropes (8mm and 9mm), rappel single strand, and find the ATC-XP to be the device of choice.

What is most important, and has been repeated ad-infinitum, is to make sure you know your chosen device backwards and forwards, know how to use it on different size ropes for different types of rappels, AND know how to use it on the rope you are using that day.


No need to pick one device for Class C and another for Class A and B. Pick the one that you feel most comfortable using and use it for everything. The broader the range of rope diameters you use, the greater the argument for using a figure eight. It will provide many more rigging options than a tube.

Tom pushes the ATC-XP because he sells them through his online store. Check around. You will find quite a few people who love them and quite a few who hate them. I own one and don't care much for it for canyoneering. They are ideal for their intended purpose -- climbing -- where they are used on a very small range of rope diameters and rappels are virtually always done on two strands of rope.

[ratagonia]

No need to pick one device for Class C and another for Class A and B. Pick the one that you feel most comfortable using and use it for everything. The broader the range of rope diameters you use, the greater the argument for using a figure eight. It will provide many more rigging options than a tube.

Tom pushes the ATC-XP because he sells them through his online store. Check around. You will find quite a few people who love them and quite a few who hate them. I own one and don't care much for it for canyoneering. They are ideal for their intended purpose -- climbing -- where they are used on a very small range of rope diameters and rappels are virtually always done on two strands of rope.

Actually, I sell quite a variety of rappel devices including the ATC-XP, the Pirahna (coming in this week) and the Petzl Figure 8. I push the ATC-XP because I like it a lot. It has a well-graded range of frictions, and works well on small diameter ropes (8mm and 9mm), single or double strand. Beginners seem to pick up how to use it quickly.

Rich's and my personal taste in canyon gear seem to run in opposite directions - this is just an example of that. But we both agree that each canyoneer should find a device that works for them, and learn how to use it backwards and forwards.

Tom

[rcwild]

But we both agree that each canyoneer should find a device that works for them, and learn how to use it backwards and forwards.


Amen, brother.

[Peter Springs]

I just wanted to resurrect this thread with regards to the rappel device; not interested in the knot question.

Obviously there are differing thoughts with regards to rappel devices. I'm curious as to whether Tom or Rich have tried using the Omega Pacific SBGII. I love the thing myself. For double rope raps, you can set up a higher-friction setting or a lower friction setting due to its solid stem feature. Also, similar to the ATC-XP it has notches that get better grab regardless of rope diameter. Finally, if you are rapping single line, you can set it up like an 8 with the rope running around the solid stem.

Curious too if you 8 users ever have your ropes get all twisted. Sucks in a party if not everyone is using 8s... they make lots of issues for ATC users. [It's a good idea in a mixed group of 8s and ATC to send the ATC users down first if double rope rappelling].

Seems like the best of all worlds to me [plus it's about 7 bucks cheaper than the ATC-XP]!

Opinions anyone?
Peter

ps- you also get the bonus jingle that the solid stem makes while it's connected to your biner/harness!

[wiese]

Springs

i luv the SBG II as well, but i fell in luv with it while paying out slack to the leader, its faster than anything i have used that is non-mechanical. it doesn't bind/bunch up when yarding on it trying to throw large amounts of slack out for the clip. but for lowering i personally did not care for it as much. it locks off great, just not as smooth as i like my belay device to be.

for what little it is worth, SBGII is the deceive that you want to take up a free wall, IMHO best device out there, but for going down, not on the top of MY personal list. but, its work ever works for ya.


each canyoneer should find a device that works for them, and learn how to use it backwards and forwards...or maybe i never learned it backwards and forwards, who knows.

take care
EW

[Peter Springs]

Hmmm. Yeah, I like it for belaying, but most people in climbing don't use it in the single-stand configuration.

I do see your point about it not having as much friction/smoothness and working as well as other devices like the XP. Compared to the v-notch of the SBGII, the XP [and wild country VC... a much cheaper alternative] has a longer channel with more surface area friction and probably lots smoother control like you're talking about.

Still, lots more choices for friction settings with the SBGII... but like you say, whatever works. But really, how many people really use all the extra modes anyway, even for flipping an XP around.

Peter

[Canyonbug]

...I'm curious as to whether Tom or Rich have tried using the Omega Pacific SBGII. I love the thing myself. For double rope raps, you can set up a higher-friction setting or a lower friction setting due to its solid stem feature. Also, similar to the ATC-XP it has notches that get better grab regardless of rope diameter. Finally, if you are rapping single line, you can set it up like an 8 with the rope running around the solid stem...

I'll chime in to this post. When I started canyoneering I was strictly a figure type rappeller. Then I was introduced last summer to the SBG II. I instantly fell in love with it and it's multiple friction settings and have been using it religiously until this last week. While in AZ I had an incident where I was being lowered over a pool to set the rope length and the mule knot I had tied to lock off jammed into the slots of the SBG II. I could not release it. I rigged a step up to take the weight off and still could not get enough slack because it had jammed so tight. The next few days I switched over and pulled out my Pirana I had on hand to use for demonstrations. I found the Pirana to be much more practical in class C canyons. Smooth rides and easy to set up without the danger of dropping it.

My conclusion to this last weeks trial are that the SBG II device is a great device and I will continue to use it in dry canyons. I will also encourage clients of mine to use it. For class C canyons and in guiding situations I will use my Pirana.

[beadysee]

i luv the SBG II as well, but i fell in luv with it while paying out slack to the leader, its faster than anything i have used that is non-mechanical. it doesn't bind/bunch up when yarding on it trying to throw large amounts of slack out for the clip.

Have both the original SBG and the superior belay gadget II. I think they are just "ok". Amazing amount of rigging flexibility for different friction.

I find the tend to sorta set on the minor axis a bit more than an ATC type device (which has a bit more degree of freedom to properly orient in the end of a biner, methinks). Minor irritation, maybe.

Also, I hate the jingle jingle sound. Tool dip can help, but, wears off the surface pretty quickly but still helps muffle the loud clinking sound these buggers make when your walking around.

Pretty much stay with the tried and true ATP XP as its a device I use a ton and am just very used to its function.

For walls, gimme a Gri Gri for belaying...so...I can...ZZZzzzz...not have to pay as much attention...maybe...(shhh, don't tell my partners). Also, I tend to jug (aka ascend) with a gri gri and its an easy transition from belay to ascend when the partner hits the anchor on a pitch. Zip out the rope stretch and hit it.

If anyone is into gear design and hero worship, Greg Lowe will be at the Odgen Climbing festival this weekend. See details here:

http://www.jefflowe.info/climbfest/

-Brian in SLC

[Peter Springs]

Hey guys,
Thanks for the posts and the feedback.

Brian: Totally agree about the grigri and lead climbing; I climb more confidently when my partner is belaying with one- that extra assurance for those moments when the guard is dropped [and everyone drops it at some point]; but it can depend on the climbing situation.

Jared: I'm curious as to if you think that situation could have been remedied any other way than choosing a different device?

Anyway, thanks for you guys posting the pros and cons. I think I'm going to start a post on comparisons of 8s vs tube/atc style devices. This was the closest thread that I found and I'd like to hear more about a comparison.

Peter

[Canyonbug]

...Jared: I'm curious as to if you think that situation could have been remedied any other way than choosing a different device?...

There are always more things to way out and more options. I gave you the abridged version of the incident. I decided in the end that I wanted to go back to the Figure 8 style devices and the Pirana still has more options for various friction. Like I said I am not throwing my SBGII away, it will still be used and I will still recommend it, but I won't be lowered on it again. If I have to I will be lowered on a Munter tied off with a Mule to release.

[Peter Springs]

Jared,

Hey, hope I didn't offend you; wasn't implying anything. Actually, your comment is one of the reasons why I'm going to start a new thread. I'd really like to know when and why people decide to go with more of an 8 style device- because there are certainly times that call for it.

Cheers,
Peter

[Canyonbug]

Jared,

Hey, hope I didn't offend you; wasn't implying anything...

No offense, sorry if it sounded that way. This is an excellent thread, keep it going and I will continue to follow it.