Canyoneering with kids

[Pilot]

Anyone have any insights into canyoneering with kids? I am getting ready to take my sons out, ages 5 and 9, and I am wondering what experiences others have had?

My first specific question is equipment related, kid's harnesses -- REI carries the Petzl Simba (http://www.rei.com/product/716710) full body style harness, and the Mammut Koala (http://www.rei.com/product/751502) sit harness. For my five year old, the Simba is the obvious choice, but for my nine year old (10 in two months) I wonder if the Koala sit harness would be a better choice? I know he would like to have a harness that looks like Dad's, and a sit harness would last him longer I think, as long as it is safe. When I measure him, his hips are an inch or two wider around than the waist, is this enough for a sit harness to be safe? Or is it better to just go with the Simba, and when he outgrows it, then switch to the Koala. Anyone have any experience with these harnesses?

Other than that, I would be interested to hear anyones thoughts or experiences with kids and canyoneering. What guidelines do people use to determine what age is appropriate to get a start in canyoneering? What kind of canyons are appropriate for which age group?

What extra precautions do people find necessary to keep younger kids safe in a canyon? Of course, the obvious thing is that an adult needs to take responsibility for keeping a child safe. I would say that means lowering kids off drops, or using a top belay. What about redundancy when the most precious thing in your life is on the line? When is a bottom belay appropriate?

Thats all I can think of for now. I would love to hear from parents, scout leaders, people with experience guiding kids, or anyone with an opinion. Thanks.

[jmoncrieff]

My suggestions for the two cents they are worth are:

• I would strongly suggest having the kids take some training first. Kids always seem to listen to some else better (than their parents) when learning a new sport.
• I would also suggest having two experienced adults. At each rappel I would have one adult go down first and the other one last. It is always nice for the kids to have another comforting and positive reinforcing voice (besides dad).
• The other experienced adult can also provide the extra safety check on all anchors and equipment setup.
• Also having another adult provides more options for providing rescues or getting help if the need arises.
• You might also want to pick a canyon you have already been down that has both smaller rappels and “exit” possibilities. My experience is that when I first went with my son, we took an extra long time to make sure everything was safe, especially since the first canyon we did together was my first trip down that canyon.
• You might also want to pick a warm day to go. In winter the canyons don’t always get sun, and you want the boys to be focus on the outdoors, canyon and rappels, not the weather.

My son and I have done numerous canyons together (he is in high school) and I literally trust him with my life. Something I can’t always say about some of the adults I have gone with. It has been a tremendously rewarding experience for both of us. Sounds like you are on the right track to make it great experience for you and your kids.

[moab mark]

I would try the simba harness on your kids before purchasing. They do not seem to fit very well. We have bought two of them and for some reason some of the webbing lengths do not seem to be sewn together at the right lengths. Strange?
Mark

[oldno7]

There are many people here that have the answer. I think the reluctance to answer might go along the lines of, do you really want to learn techniques that involve putting your own children at risk on the internet? We teach several different options, but at this point I would say "you" the parent need training so you can safely take your children through canyons or have them rappel. These are mostly advanced methods, they are taught after a person has a firm grip on basic skills and then been through technical training. I'm trying to not come off as harsh or rude, rather giving you a realistic aproach that works. RREAD on here can verify what I have told you, he just got his 9-now 10 yr old going this past summer. I hope it all works out for you.
It's a great accomplishment to be able to share these canyons with your children.

[Pilot]

I'm not sure I follow you, oldno7. I have had technical training, and I have a firm grasp on basic skills. I know how to setup a top belay, contingency anchors, lowering, and have some familiarity with haul systems. Is there a canyoneering with kids class? Or are you saying that the advanced class would address this? I think I already have the skills necessary to do this, but if there are advanced skills that I need, maybe you can tell me what they are. Then I can decide how to best learn those skills, or seek the necessary training.

[rcwild]

Others are providing some good suggestions. I'll throw out a couple more ideas.

I started my sons very early, when they were around 5 or 6. They had a great time doing the "fun stuff". Issue I had was with the approaches. That old "Are we there yet?" and "Daddy, I'm tired. Why do we have to hike so far?" Took them to Havasu Canyon when they were 6 and 8. They loved the waterfalls, but didn't care much for the 10 mile hike. Consider taking them to a few places with very short approaches. Try places like Peekaboo and Spooky first, if you haven't already.

I assume the skills Kurt is talking about are things like assisted rappels. You don't want to get past the non-reversible 30-footer, then discover one of your kids won't go down the 60-footer. Much easy to get them to down with you.

When my oldest daughter (now 17) started doing canyons with me, she was around 8. I came up with a system I call the Ashley System. Run the rope through the rappel ring and tie it to Ashley's harness. Install a block on Ashley's side of the rope, then rappel on the bag side (my weight against the block). When I'm down, she leans back and lets me lower her (just like at the rock gym). Came in especially handy in Class C canyons where I didn't want her in the water without me and I certainly didn't want her rigging her own rappel up on top without being there to check her.

[oldno7]

I'm not sure I follow you, oldno7. I have had technical training, and I have a firm grasp on basic skills. I know how to setup a top belay, contingency anchors, lowering, and have some familiarity with haul systems. Is there a canyoneering with kids class? Or are you saying that the advanced class would address this? I think I already have the skills necessary to do this, but if there are advanced skills that I need, maybe you can tell me what they are. Then I can decide how to best learn those skills, or seek the necessary training.

Rich's description of his Ashley system is a good start. (excellent method). I was referring to assisted rappels as another option, but definitely one not to be taught over the internet. I believe a full body harness is a necessary item to have for this age as well.
It definitely needs to be a fun, safe adventure for kids to keep there interest.

[rcwild]

Harness for your 9-year-old will depend on his size. That Mammut Koala might work well.

5-year-old really should have a full-body harness. I have a only-slightly-used Mammut kids harness I'll sell to you for $15. It's similar to the Petzl Simba. Used 2 or 3 times. Looks like new.

[oldno7]

At issue with the Ashley method would be double loading the anchor.(only for the 2nd person being lowered, or rappelling) Certainly not an anticipated concern for most children but something to think about if doing this method with heavier people. Anchor should be bomber for these type of techniques.
You might also want to be sure you have a solution on a rappel that involves a sticky pull, if you stick your rope with your child on it, can you figure a way to get them down? Remember you are at the bottom(Ashley Method) A simple crossing of the rope below the anchor may leave you in such a predicament.

[Pilot]

I just wanted to thank everyone who replied for their input, it is very helpful. I gained some insight from the responses so far. I hope others won't be mind sharing their knowledge and experience on the internet, though I appreciate the concern. Thanks.

[abarbosa]

Hi Pilot,

My 1.5 cents...

As mentioned by others, a full body harness (15 USD is a very good price) for your 5 years old kid and a small waist harness for your 9 years old is what make more sense. I recommend you to perform the first long rappels with your 5 years old kid besides you until he gets confident. I also suggest practicing first then going to dry canyons with low rappels and easy exits. Gradually you can increase the expertise level of your kids.

I performed the first dry rappel with my daughter of 3 years old (now she is 5), she was very happy but her mother was a little bit nervous. If mommy is in the canyon, is a good idea that she descends first than the kids. If you kids are alone at the top, is a good idea to tie them to something else (believe me) and instruct them to NOT TOUCH the carabiner until they are waiting. Most kids like to launch rocks; this is fine if they are at the bottom but not at the top.

I have been guiding for kids of 4 years and older with their parents and I use following two rappel choices:

1. If you are the only one with expertise of ropes techniques and/or if parents are nervous (if you are too), my recommendation is to provide two ropes for them. One for rappel with the releasable contingency anchor. The second providing the belay from the top.

2. If you are performing the canyon with somebody with experience to perform belay from the bottom you can use only one rope with the releasable contingency anchor.

A First Aids course for you is highly required in this situation.

Regards

[Parker]

Excelent advice! I tried the Ashley system with my kids and it is my new favorite. Much better than lowering them from the top or a tandem. It also gets them used to going down by themselves.
Thanks