Knives for canyoneering?

[Spatulator]

I didn't want to take my trusty (and expensive) spyderco into the gritty, abusive world of canyoneering. So I bought a Gerber Chameleon (http://www.gerberblades.com/products/view.php?model=6425) from Sierra Trading Post (http://www.sierratradingpost.com/xq/asp/base_no.73475/dept_id.L2~316/qx/product.htm) . It looks like a similar design to the Spatha (http://www.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?MotRecherche=Quick+Search&Langue=en&Activite=&Famille=&Produit=466&Conseil=&SousFamille=&News=) , but I think better quality. The few times I've handled the spatha they've struck me as having pretty low-quality steel and a flimsy handle. Anyone have any experience with this or other knives in a canyon environment? Does everyone carry a knife? Do you have it attached to your harness or somewhere else? Would something like this (http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=5) be better?

[valeraxy]

I've weighted the pros and cons of carrying a knife. I decided against it. I'm just not a knife person. I'm too clumsy and afraid I slip and fall and cut my throat or something. I decided to go with $3 surgical scissors instead. They probably won't cut a rope (never tried), but work fine on webbing, hair, shirt, etc. Been laughed at, don't care. I have it in a chalk bag (obviously without chalk :) ), which is also nice for other small stuff that I like to keep handy (bandanna, hair clips, etc.).

Valerie

[rcwild]

Valerie, If you sprang for the $4 scissors, you could even cut rope. :rolleyes:

If you can't think of any reasons to carry a knife, you probably don't need to. I always carry one in canyons. If Class A or B, I carry a small Spyder on a string around my neck. If Class C, I carry a large Spyder in a sheath on my harness where I can get at it quickly.

In Class A or B, I might need a knife. If I do, probably won't be a big rush getting it out.

In Class C, I might need a knife and I might need it fast ... tangled in the rope in a hydraulic at the base of a waterfall, rescuing someone stuck on the rope in a waterfall, etc.

[valeraxy]

If you were like me, you'd strangle yourself with the string that holds the knife around your neck, and you wouldn't be able to cut the string because the knife is hanging on it! :eek: Good thing is, I know you're not like me :)

[rcwild]

So, Val ... you have to carry rounded scissors because you can't be trusted with a knife, and you are at risk of strangling yourself whenever you are around string/cord/rope ?? Perhaps you should forget about canyoneering and take up checkers instead. :D

[mtngoat59102]

My favorite to date - The 79mm Spyderco Rescue knife. The straight serrated blade slices webbing like hot butter.
http://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=73

Most important to me is how I carry my knife. I found a nylon sheath with a velcro closure that has a belt holding sleeve that runs from top to bottom. I carry the sheath mounted horizontally on my left leg loop. It's out of the way but easy access to my off hand in an instant of need while my right hand controls the brake.

Had a party member cut themselves with one of those Buck knives designed to be clipped into a carabiner this last summer. This particular Buck knife is an unsafe design to be carried on a biner. Note the notch in the back of the handle, DO NOT clip this to a biner on your harness!
http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/246/230

My second favorite is the Kershaw Scallion w/the partial serration blade. This kinfe has assisted opening and opens to a locked position w/the push of one finger. The one-handed assisted opening is very nice while you're fooling around with an achor or have your hands full, etc. (no problems to date with this opening system clogging w/sand)
http://www.agrussell.com/knives/production/e_through_k/kershaw/kershaw_scallion_plain_edge.html

[stevebrezovec]

What about kayaking-style knives? Those always seemed like a good idea to me. Seem to stow conveniently too. My fear about using your leg-loop idea, which I like, is I'd like to have a tether on my knife in case I drop it. I can't see where I'd keep the tether out of the way, using your leg loop config, where it won't get tangled or tripped on.
Thoughts?
S

[valeraxy]

you are at risk of strangling yourself whenever you are around string/cord/rope ??

No, it's the other way - not when I'm around string, but when the string is around me :)

[mtngoat59102]

My fear about using your leg-loop idea, which I like, is I'd like to have a tether on my knife in case I drop it. I can't see where I'd keep the tether out of the way, using your leg loop config, where it won't get tangled or tripped on.
Thoughts?
S

Well, If a tether is important to you my system does not sound ideal. I really dislike more cord than necessary hanging off my harness anyplace so a tether is an idea I kind of abandoned. I assume you are thinking about needs in class C canyons. What is common among the European guides in wet canyons?

One friend has a lanyard around his neck with a small fixed blade knife in a scabbard. He tucks it in the neck of his wetsuit but this sytem never seemed easy access to me. My thought is a wrist loop tucked into my knife sheath that I can slide my hand into prior to pulling the knife free. This would provide more security and not hang free from my harness. I think I'll play with that idea.

[skianddive]

Had a party member cut themselves with one of those Buck knives designed to be clipped into a carabiner this last summer. This particular Buck knife is an unsafe design to be carried on a biner. Note the notch in the back of the handle, DO NOT clip this to a biner on your harness!
http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/246/230


This Buck knife has its own biner that folds away when the knife is opened. It can be attached to the right side of your pack or onto your harness, making it accessible by your non-brake hand.

http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/245/236

And it's available in many pretty colors! :)

[sonnylawrence]

Yeah, I thought this Buck knife was going to be my final answer, having kept many knife companies in business over the years do to my propensity to lose knives. Well, I had one. Bill Bees and I did Eaton canyon a few months ago with a goodly flow of water. I dropped over an 8 foot waterfall into a hydraulic. That was no big deal. I just had to hug the left wall to catch downstream water. But my Buck knife decided to stay. Somehow it flipped around on my BD Alpine Bod harness and came unhooked. (Hence the reason for using locking biners in rockclimbing, etc.) So, I am back to using one with a big hole in it that I can put a lightweight BD locking biner in.

[koentje]

Well, If a tether is important to you my system does not sound ideal. I really dislike more cord than necessary hanging off my harness anyplace so a tether is an idea I kind of abandoned. I assume you are thinking about needs in class C canyons. What is common among the European guides in wet canyons?

One friend has a lanyard around his neck with a small fixed blade knife in a scabbard. He tucks it in the neck of his wetsuit but this sytem never seemed easy access to me. My thought is a wrist loop tucked into my knife sheath that I can slide my hand into prior to pulling the knife free. This would provide more security and not hang free from my harness. I think I'll play with that idea.

In Europe two types are popular: the kind that looks like a heavy-duty cutter (comes from rafters and paddlers), those are mostly worn around the neck and slide open like a cutter.
The second type is the blunt-tipped wildwater knifes, the likes of Gerber or Schrade. They're in a plastic sheat, usually worn on the leg loop of the harness.
They're secured by a tough elastic band (sandow type) that goes in a loop through the attachment hole on the heft and is pulled/stretched over the tip of the sheat. The sandow "pulls" the knife into the sheat this way and secures it very good.

To grab it you just have to stick your fingers into the sandow, unhook it from around the tip and yank the knife out - those sheats are designed with a weak push-button release, a good yank will do.
This way you'll have the knife dangling by the sandow around your wrist. Very neat and secure.

Koen

[mtngoat59102]

[QUOTE=skianddive]This Buck knife has its own biner that folds away when the knife is opened. It can be attached to the right side of your pack or onto your harness, making it accessible by your non-brake hand.

http://www.buckknives.com/catalog/detail/245/236
QUOTE]

Well, chalk it up to fixing up one skewered leg and hand but I wouldn't spend my money on this design idea from Buck. YMMV

Neil

[sonnylawrence]

Koen, can you post a link to actual products for these types of knives?


In Europe two types are popular: the kind that looks like a heavy-duty cutter (comes from rafters and paddlers), those are mostly worn around the neck and slide open like a cutter.
The second type is the blunt-tipped wildwater knifes, the likes of Gerber or Schrade. They're in a plastic sheat, usually worn on the leg loop of the harness.
They're secured by a tough elastic band (sandow type) that goes in a loop through the attachment hole on the heft and is pulled/stretched over the tip of the sheat. The sandow "pulls" the knife into the sheat this way and secures it very good.

To grab it you just have to stick your fingers into the sandow, unhook it from around the tip and yank the knife out - those sheats are designed with a weak push-button release, a good yank will do.
This way you'll have the knife dangling by the sandow around your wrist. Very neat and secure.

Koen

[stevebrezovec]

Well, If a tether is important to you my system does not sound ideal. I really dislike more cord than necessary hanging off my harness anyplace so a tether is an idea I kind of abandoned. I assume you are thinking about needs in class C canyons. What is common among the European guides in wet canyons?

My thought is a wrist loop tucked into my knife sheath that I can slide my hand into prior to pulling the knife free. This would provide more security and not hang free from my harness. I think I'll play with that idea.

I've seen river knives as the standard in Europe. I like your wrist tether idea, though, for round these here Utah parts. I've been using the doubled neck lanyard (pull a loop off your neck for an extended tether) in dry canyons and I'll probably stick with it. Maybe a wrist tether on a river knife, fixed on my leg loop? Back to the drawing board with sewing needles, ductape and nylon.

[ratagonia]

I'm pimping a cute little knife under the Imlay label. It is very small. Useful for cutting webbing and/or stuck ropes, but obviously NOT a river rescue type knife. Carries well on a carabiner.

http://www.imlaygear.com/knife.htm

And yes, it is the same knife offered by Trango.

Tom

[koentje]

I've seen river knives as the standard in Europe. I like your wrist tether idea, though, for round these here Utah parts. I've been using the doubled neck lanyard (pull a loop off your neck for an extended tether) in dry canyons and I'll probably stick with it. Maybe a wrist tether on a river knife, fixed on my leg loop? Back to the drawing board with sewing needles, ductape and nylon.

The river knives are the standard for those willing to fork out the money :-).

The cutter-style knives come next but if you'd look at it in mere numbers the cheap (10$) Spyderco copies worn around the neck are probably most numerous.
In dry canyons whole other rules apply. In that environment, if you can get at whatever knife in a reasonable amount of time it'd be OK I guess.
It's when you're drowning under water or under a waterfall that you need to be able to draw a sharp knife in a very short time - with numb fingers, blind & in a panic...

Here are a few links to such ww-knives (Schrade apparently went out of business), notice they are all blunt-tipped - I see no use for impaling someone in a canyon :-).
If I'd pick a favourite it'd probably be the Gerber in this version (exists in bigger and pointed versions too). It's high quality, the sheat slides over webbing, you can yank it free, you can secure it with a sandow loop around its hard sheat, it's compact & light.
But over here in Europe it's also very expensive, last time I looked about 120 $. I bought a similar Schrade for 1/3 that price.

http://www.eknifeworks.com/webapp/eCommerce/product.jsp?range=21&Mode=Cat&Cat=55&SKU=CR2604

http://www.eknifeworks.com/webapp/eCommerce/product.jsp?range=51&Mode=Cat&Cat=55&SKU=KS1008BLP

http://www.gerberblades.com/products/view.php?model=5640

[Xtopher]

I've seen just about as many differents models and carrying methods for knives as there are canyoneers!!
In canyons with alot of water, having a knife immediately available is an absolute necessity. Forntunately it is rare, but I have encountered two situations where lives were saved because of this.
I know alot of canyoneers who don't want extra tether cord hanging around which is understandable, but alot of these same people have also lost their knive in a frothing pool at one time or another. I use a reliable elastic tether that, when extended, is at arms-length.
Personally I have opted for a pair of Aqualung scuba scissors attached on the back of my harness. they are very durable (can cut all ropes and wire and even open canned food!), they have no dangerous sharp point, they are easily grasped even with neoprene gloves and cold-numbed hands which can drop a knife more easily.
They have performed admirably in rescue exercises and real life situations.
But to each his/her own method as long as it works!

[stevengines]

Benchmade rescue hooks... Models 5 & 7

BM5 (http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=5)
BM7 (http://www.7hook.com/)

I know this is a fairly old thread but I just wanted to recommend a couple "knives". They are sold with several different sheaths to accomadate many wear applications.

Very safe for anyone concerned with stabbing themselves but wants a fast, easy to use blade.

I haven't needed one in an emergency yet, but it is one of the simplest and easiest to carry knives. Extremely safe too. They will cut anything you'll ever encounter in climbing, canyoning and rescue. Rope, webbing, clothing, harnesses, leather boots... ... no problem.

For rescue/medical issues it's one of the safest ways to remove clothing/equipment from a victim.

I carry one all the time. I prefer the 7. Easier to handle and a little better leverage for cutting.

[christju]

Benchmade rescue hooks... Models 5 & 7

BM5 (http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=5)
BM7 (http://www.7hook.com/)

I know this is a fairly old thread but I just wanted to recommend a couple "knives". They are sold with several different sheaths to accomadate many wear applications.

Very safe for anyone concerned with stabbing themselves but wants a fast, easy to use blade.

I haven't needed one in an emergency yet, but it is one of the simplest and easiest to carry knives. Extremely safe too. They will cut anything you'll ever encounter in climbing, canyoning and rescue. Rope, webbing, clothing, harnesses, leather boots... ... no problem.

For rescue/medical issues it's one of the safest ways to remove clothing/equipment from a victim.

I carry one all the time. I prefer the 7. Easier to handle and a little better leverage for cutting.

I bought the smaller one for my last trip overseas. Thankfully never had to use it. I was issued the bigger one as well. Really nice knife; I've been impressed with all the Benchmades I've owned over the years. Only reason I don't have some of them is I've lost them along the way:mad:. I have not worn one out yet.

The smaller one can be used as a bottle opener. :2thumbs: Haven't tried it with the bigger one yet.

[kuper]

I really like the Bear claw rescue knife I bought from Rich at the Zion Randezvous. Carrying it in a secure yet easily reached place can be tough, I had the sheath break on mine while in Kolob and lost it. The knife was attached to a leg loop. I think I would prefer an attachment on the front of my wetsuit or back pack shoulder strap.

[rcwild]

The knife was attached to a leg loop. I think I would prefer an attachment on the front of my wetsuit or back pack shoulder strap.

Where you carry your rescue knife will depend a lot on the type of canyon you are doing.

In a Class A/B canyon, if a rescue is necessary you are most likely to need the knife at the anchor. Carrying your rescue knife on your pack is fine. I carry mine in the hood of my pack. Just make sure your pack stays with you until everyone else is down.

In a serious Class C canyon, you might need to execute a rescue at the anchor. You might also need to cut yourself free when you are in the water. If the current is strong, you shouldn't be wearing your pack. Your knife will be hard to get at quickly if your pack is hanging from your harness and impossible to access if you zipped your pack down. So better to wear it on your harness.