Contingency Anchors

[rcwild]

The idea behind a contingency anchor is to provide a releasable system in case someone gets stuck on the rope during rappel. When rappelling in a waterfall, landing in current or in a hydraulic at the base of a waterfall, it is always advisable to use a releasable system.

The photo illustrates a contingency anchor using a munter-mule combination. The munter is the hitch that is tied onto the carabiner. The mule is the hitch tied onto the rope just below the munter. In an emergency, the mule can be untied like the bow on a shoe lace. Once the mule is released, it is important to maintain control of the rope so you can lower the person to the bottom. The munter provides the friction necessary for a controled lower.

<img src="http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/munter_mule.jpg">

Once everyone else is down, the last person unties the munter-mule, retrieves the carabiner and rappels on both strands or sets up a block and raps on one strand.

IMPORTANT:
Note how the rope is passed through the rappel ring. This is done before tying the munter-mule, but only so the rope is pre-threaded and ready to go for the last person down. Once the rope is threaded through the ring, make sure you tie the munter-mule on the rappel strand of the rope. Focus on the two strands of rope coming out of the bottom of the carabiner -- the rappel strand and the release strand. Ignore the strand coming out the other side of the rappel ring.

Safety Knot
The loop created by the mule hitch should be secured to avoid accidental release. One simple method is to tie an overhand knot onto the rappel strand of rope using the loop. In an emergency, untie the overhand, then release the mule hitch.

<img src="http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/munter_mule_safety_knot.jpg">

Safety Carabiner
Another method of securing the loop is to use a "safety biner". Clip a carabiner onto the anchor, then clip the loop into the carabiner. It is not necessary to lock the carabiner. In an emergency, remove the loop from the carabiner, then release the mule hitch.

<img src="http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/munter_mule_safety_biner.jpg">

Two Half Hitches
Some people say that using a mule hitch to back up a munter might create a problem. When the rappel rope is weighted, the loop of the mule hitch might roll as it is released. If it does, it might create a tight twist that cannot be pulled through.

<img src="http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/half_hitch_backup.jpg">

I have never had any difficulty releasing a mule, so I suspect the problem might have something to do with how the sheath of the rope is braided. Some ropes may be more prone to this problem than others.

If you discover that you have difficulty releasing a mule hitch with your rope, you can use two half hitches instead as illustrated in the photo. While one mule hitch is secure, one half hitch is not. You must use two.

[dccampen]

Why do you use the term "contingency anchor"? I see nothing but a load releasing hitch and nothing to do with the anchor.

[rcwild]

I learned this system via the American Mountain Guides Association (AMGA) back in the mid-90s and kept their term for it.

Symantics. Some people include the anchor and the way the rope is rigged to it as "the anchor". Personally, I classify the releasable system as part of the rigging, not the anchor, but I've been calling it a contingency anchor for so long ...

Communication is simple when I'm talking to most guides. I say "contingency anchor" and they immediately know what I mean.

[ratagonia]

Why do you use the term "contingency anchor"? I see nothing but a load releasing hitch and nothing to do with the anchor.

By using a load-releasing hitch, in the case of a problem on the rope, the hitch can be released and the stuck rappeller lowered. Thus, it allows dealing with contingencies.

In Class C canyon, with flowing water, having someone stuck on the rope in a waterfall or stuck on the rope in a hydraulic is the nightmare. The contingency anchor system was developed for dealing with these problems. It also works well when someone gets their hair or shirt jammed in their rappel device. The leader, managing the top of the drop, pulls the hitch and lowers the victim. Quick, effective. In a guiding situation, makes for a big tip.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Nice pics, Rich.

I have found the Munter-Mule peculiarly awkward to tie at first. As usual, the best way to learn it well is to practice, practice, practice.

Tom

[dccampen]

By using a load-releasing hitch, in the case of a problem on the rope, the hitch can be released and the stuck rappeller lowered. Thus, it allows dealing with contingencies.

In Class C canyon, with flowing water, having someone stuck on the rope in a waterfall or stuck on the rope in a hydraulic is the nightmare. The contingency anchor system was developed for dealing with these problems. It also works well when someone gets their hair or shirt jammed in their rappel device. The leader, managing the top of the drop, pulls the hitch and lowers the victim. Quick, effective. In a guiding situation, makes for a big tip.

Yes, I understood the reasons for using a load releasing hitch. I just didn't see the reason for calling it anything other than a load releasing hitch and I especially didn't see the reason for using the word "anchor" in the term when it has nothing to do with the anchor. Rich's explanation though was completley sufficient - that using the term "contingency anchor" to refer to using a load releasing hitch to connect the main line to the anchor had become an established practice among some mountaineering guides.

[rambler-joe]

We have had some difficulty releasing the mule or hitches when tied below the munter. As a matter of course we now tie off the munter with two half hitches above the carabiner, around the anchor tapes, and then lock it off with a cliplock biner to the unused side of the rappel rope. With this system there is almost no load on the hitches and no chance of them getting jammed. On training courses EVERY rope is set up this way.
I have seen a lot of discussion about 'deadmans handles' or I think you might call it a 'macrame' knot. I have not been able to find a description, picture, of this knot anywhere. Can someone please help:confused:
RJ

[rcwild]

I have seen a lot of discussion about 'deadmans handles' or I think you might call it a 'macrame' knot. I have not been able to find a description, picture, of this knot anywhere. Can someone please help:confused:
RJ

Working on it ... See: Macrame (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1233)

[koentje]

We have had some difficulty releasing the mule or hitches when tied below the munter. RJ


That's why the munter-mule on a carabiner is going the way of the dodo in European canyons. Too many problems with unlocking the contraption, getting the munter pinched off/blocked against some rock, feeding the rope... you name it.
In a clean test situation or in "ideal" spots there's not much of a problem, but... I rarely come across an "ideal setup" in a canyon !

Almost all switched to a fig. of 8 "loose on the rope", locked off and then used as a stopper against the anchor.

In case of emergency: clip one of your belay lines in the fig 8, pull on it a little with your weight while unlocking the thing (which is easy, because of the friction caused by the fig 8 before the lock-off hitch in the big eye of the 8). When it's unlocked you can pull the fig 8 nicely off the anchor to have a clean lowering situation.

I can try to post a picture but am sure Rich will do that in my place :)

[rcwild]

I mentioned this issue in the article in our Canyon Techniques section.

It has only happened to me one time with some 8mm cord I use when I teach courses. It's never happened with any of my "real" canyoneering ropes. I believe it has something to do with the way the sheath is braided.

Problems with the rope against rock can occur whether you're using a munter/mule or a figure eight. I avoid it with my munter/mule by using a Stubai 3D carabiner. Even easier to avoid with my canyon quickdraw with a 3D carabiner on the bottom end.

There are pros and cons to any system, including using a figure 8 as a "contingency block" as Koen described. Personally, I don't like giving up my rappel device for the rigging at the anchor. But ... to each his own. Experiment with several different methods, pick your favorite and master it.

I do have photos I will be posting this evening to illustrate alternative contingency anchors.

[koentje]

Problems with the rope against rock can occur whether you're using a munter/mule or a figure eight. I avoid it with my munter/mule by using a Stubai 3D carabiner. Even easier to avoid with my canyon quickdraw with a 3D carabiner on the bottom end.

There are pros and cons to any system, including using a figure 8 as a "contingency block" as Koen described. Personally, I don't like giving up my rappel device for the rigging at the anchor. But ... to each his own. Experiment with several different methods, pick your favorite and master it.


The biggest drawback of the munter/mule setup is how difficult it is to feed the rope through if you have to lower someone more then a few feet in a hurry. Try it a few times, and not out of a tree stand and you'll see what I mean. You need 3 hands :mad:
You can avoid this by not threading the rope through the anchor when setting it up. But that's a mayor time loss, you'll need to reinstall the rope as the last one goes down.

And it's impossible to pinch the rope with the "8-block", you pull it away from the anchor as far as you like - you can even step backwards 10 yards or more pulling the 8 with you if you feel like it. Basically you're lowering the person on rope off your harness as you would with a climber who's just finished his route. Simple & neat.

Most people using this technique a lot just carry a spare fig 8. I don't bother. If my 8 is literally tied up somewhere and I need to go down, I can always do that with a munter and tie me off along the way with a mule :D

And you only need one cheap piece of gear, a fig 8, something that around here everybody has on him anyway. Not a very special carabiner, plus some more and/or a quickdraw.

I'm a fan, but know (and occasionaly use) both, depending on the situation.

[rcwild]

The biggest drawback of the munter/mule setup is how difficult it is to feed the rope through if you have to lower someone more then a few feet in a hurry. Try it a few times, and not out of a tree stand and you'll see what I mean. You need 3 hands. You can avoid this by not threading the rope through the anchor when setting it up. But that's a mayor time loss, you'll need to reinstall the rope as the last one goes down.

What? Are you still blind in one eye, Koen? When I come to visit Chateau Viaene in March, you'll have to show me how you're doing it. Have you ever tried it sober?

[koentje]

What? Are you still blind in one eye, Koen? When I come to visit Chateau Viaene in March, you'll have to show me how you're doing it. Have you ever tried it sober?

:D :D

Exactly as in your picture: you need one brake hand, one hand to pull the rope through the rapide and one hand to feed it through on the other side without cinches as it comes out of the rope bag - without a rope bag you need a fourth :rolleyes:
If not, it'll take you an eternity to lower someone 60 ft with a great potential to snag the whole system a few times along the way.
I'm talking real-life uncomfortable, not-ideal-setup-nor-anchor stressy emergency here with someone screaming (or trying to...) for dear life or hair at the bottom end.
Not the rope around a tree branch next to a parking lot or in the rafters of my future chateau :cool:

[rcwild]

Only two hands necessary when you do it right. Quick, smooth lowering. No snags. No rope twists.

[koentje]

Only two hands necessary when you do it right. Quick, smooth lowering. No snags. No rope twists.

I'll humour you and we'll race each other in Greece during the international RV. From time of installation, short stop of chrono when the "victim" gets set up, to the feet of the victim touching ground.

The winner gets a Mythos beer, a large one :).

I'm a big fan of those kind of games (the loser pays a beer), stemming from my long-bygone days as a barkeep. Since then I have a nose for such opportunities - start saving :D

[rambler-joe]

maybe it's because I spent all my life hanging off this orb upside down, but I just don't get it.:confused:

1) If the figure 8 is the block for the system, how are you able to pull it back "10 feet" with the weight of the patient on the rope?

2) How do you set up the rigging with the rope NOT going through the anchor?

3) Isn't the weight of the patient sufficient to pull the rope through the munter and isn't this controllable with one hand, leaving the other free to look after the loose end of the rope if necessary?

When in Greece please make sure your 'victim' is well padded before you start your race and may the best man win. I look forward to seeing the results, and a pix of the figure 8 block please.
RJ

[koentje]

maybe it's because I spent all my life hanging off this orb upside down, but I just don't get it.:confused:

1) If the figure 8 is the block for the system, how are you able to pull it back "10 feet" with the weight of the patient on the rope?

2) How do you set up the rigging with the rope NOT going through the anchor?

3) Isn't the weight of the patient sufficient to pull the rope through the munter and isn't this controllable with one hand, leaving the other free to look after the loose end of the rope if necessary?

When in Greece please make sure your 'victim' is well padded before you start your race and may the best man win. I look forward to seeing the results, and a pix of the figure 8 block please.
RJ

Everybody is confused, most of us just don't realize it :confused:

1) Try it. What basically happens is that you pull along the fig 8 with your weight once you unlocked it, without "giving" much rope - you could call it a kind of simultaneous mini-rappel. Imagine yourself lowering your climbing buddy in a rock gym. While you're lowering him you can squat or stand on a stool if you wanted to - you "run" over the line.
The idea behind pulling the 8 away from the anchor is to prevent pinching the rope between the 8, the rapide or the rock.

2) That's easy, just clip in the carabiner for the munter in the anchor and make the knot straight into the carabiner without passing it through the rapide first. That way it doesn't pass through the anchor and is easier/smoother to activate. It's a classic beginners "mistake", nothing really wrong with it apart from some time loss.

3) if the munter is touching rock the weight of the victim is often enough to block the system. The amount of drag generated is higher than the pull.
I'll give up some advantage by saying that you can remedy that by pulling it off the rock with one of your belay lines - like you do with the fig 8 block. But it's more awkward, sometimes not possible (if it's high) and needs continuous force.
And in my experience ropes tend to snag running over a carabiner in a maillon rapide - the places where you can hang your rope bag higher than the maillon to prevent that are rare in real canyon life.
That's what I meant with needing a 3rd hand: one as a brake hand, one to pull the rope through the maillon and a third to guide it through from the other side so that it doesn't snag on the carabiner inside the maillon.
You can do it quite allright with two hands in most situations but the margin between running smoothly and snagging is narrow... you certainly can't "let it rip" - but I'm curious to see what Rich has in mind, I think he's bluffing but you never know with that old fox :D

We'll do it above deep water, in case we get carried away !

[rcwild]

1) Based on Koen's description, I have an image of someone pulling back on the rope, not the figure eight. Unlikely that would work, so I assume he means to say you clip into the small hole on the eight with a carabiner (on the end of your safety tether?). Lean back away from the anchor and you will be lowering through the eight on your harness using the rapide as a change of direction (pulley).

2) Take a look at this photo:

http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/munter_mule.jpg

Note how the rope passes through the rapide above the carabiner. This is done in advance to be ready for the last person to rappel after the munter/mule is removed. If you skip that step, Koen is suggesting it is simpler to feed rope, but the last person will have to get the rope into that rapide before he can rappel. Either by threading a bunch of rope or by opening the rapide (if it will open).

3) Koen will owe me yet another beer after I demonstrate how simple it is to feed rope through a munter when lowering someone.

[koentje]

1) Based on Koen's description, I have an image of someone pulling back on the rope, not the figure eight. Unlikely that would work, so I assume he means to say you clip into the small hole on the eight with a carabiner (on the end of your safety tether?). Lean back away from the anchor and you will be lowering through the eight on your harness using the rapide as a change of direction (pulley).

3) Koen will owe me yet another beer after I demonstrate how simple it is to feed rope through a munter when lowering someone.

1) quote from my very first post on this subject: "In case of emergency: clip one of your belay lines in the fig 8, pull on it a little with your weight while unlocking the thing...".
(self) Belay line, personal safety tether, private daisy chain, a chain of carabiners... whatever ! Just clip something that can hold a few hundred lbs and is connected to your harness into the fig 8 (doesn't have to be the small hole, any hole will do !), unlock it, pull and let fly - braking just a little before you'd hear a thud or a splash ofcourse.
If it's Rich on the rope, pull in a bit of slack after the first thud to catch him on the rebound - he's our friend after all ;)

3) that'd be great, deal !! To show my gratitude I'll show you how you can zip someone down using a fig 8. I think I'll charge 2 beers for that :D

[rcwild]

Ah ... I didn't understand what you meant by "belay line". You write English with a Flemish accent.

:D

[rambler-joe]

Thanks guys, I think I've got it now.:D Just a bit more stuff to play with. I must admit, though, that I'm an advocate of using as little gear as possible in any particular situation and would, therefore, consider the figure 8 as excess to requirements. I will try it nonetheless.
RJ.

[rcwild]

Make sure you do try the technique that Koen described. If it's not obvious, Koen and I are friends and I like giving him a bit of grief (and winning free beer from him). But all kidding aside ... I have a great deal of respect for Koen's technical skills. I've tried the technique before, but hearing Koen's recommendations in this thread has inspired me to give it another try.

I'll go back and forth between munter/mule and figure eight blocks for a while to see how they compare. On my way back to Costa Rica for another two weeks. I'll start while I'm there.

[koentje]

Thanks guys, I think I've got it now.:D Just a bit more stuff to play with. I must admit, though, that I'm an advocate of using as little gear as possible in any particular situation and would, therefore, consider the figure 8 as excess to requirements. I will try it nonetheless.
RJ.

Whadayamean ?!? An 8 excess gear ??? It should be basic :D

Here's a link to how it's done, it's in French but the drawings speak for themselves.

http://www.efcanyon.net/debrayable_sur_huit.htm

I forgot another advantage: you can leave it in place for the last one down and recuperate the thing from below.

But a thing to avoid: that the rope "jumps" the little hole of the fig. 8. Which would be bad... It's recommended by some to attach a safety tether or quickdraw straight away when installing it.

[Paul Nelson]

I picture really helped understanding how this works. The munter-mule set-up requires another carabiner, or better a quick draw, however, this method simply uses a figure-8. It also looks like you can pull it down easily too, just like the clove hitch on a carabiner. Its a block and a contingency rigging; very nice.

As Koen mention, some caution is necessary to make sure the rope does not jump over the small hole.

Koen, thanks for altering us to this option!

I am going to try this at home, and then in a canyon.

[Pilot]

I second that, now that I have seen the picture, it all makes sense! This does look like a good option.

As for setting up the munter-mule on the carabiner only, without passing through the rapide to ease unlocking/rope feed, that raises this question -- why not clip the carabiner into the anchor seperately from the rapide (instead of into the rapide), and then feed the rope through the rapide, and setup the munter-mule contingency off the carabiner as usual. By having carabiner and rapide next to each other in the anchor, instead of clipped together, the feed side of the rope will be hanging slightly above the munter-mule off the carabiner, eliminating any rope snag possibility between the rapide and carabiner. Any disadvantage to doing it this way, as opposed to the 'normal' setup in Rich's picture?

[sonnylawrence]

Another consideration using the Figure 8 over the Munter is the anchor loading. It gets double loaded with the Figure 8. That is probably only a concern with marginal anchors.

[koentje]

Another consideration using the Figure 8 over the Munter is the anchor loading. It gets double loaded with the Figure 8. That is probably only a concern with marginal anchors.

Can you explain this a bit, I don't "see" it ?
Basically it's your ordinary stopper knot.
Thx

[koentje]

I second that, now that I have seen the picture, it all makes sense! This does look like a good option.

As for setting up the munter-mule on the carabiner only, without passing through the rapide to ease unlocking/rope feed, that raises this question -- why not clip the carabiner into the anchor seperately from the rapide (instead of into the rapide), and then feed the rope through the rapide, and setup the munter-mule contingency off the carabiner as usual. By having carabiner and rapide next to each other in the anchor, instead of clipped together, the feed side of the rope will be hanging slightly above the munter-mule off the carabiner, eliminating any rope snag possibility between the rapide and carabiner. Any disadvantage to doing it this way, as opposed to the 'normal' setup in Rich's picture?


No, that's actually a good way to set it up snagfree. The only disadvantages that I see is that it won't always be possible to set it up like this and that you'd face a bad fall factor if the side-by-side or higher anchor point should fail.
It should always be the lowest point that carries the load.

[sonnylawrence]

Can you explain this a bit, I don't "see" it ?
Basically it's your ordinary stopper knot.
Thx

In the picture you provided, it acts as a stopper knot and the load the anchor sees would be just the weight of the person on rappel. When you activate the device to lower someone, it appears you clip into the small ring of the Figure 8 with a tether off your harness. After untying the Figure 8, you place your weight on it and release rope though it as though belaying. At that point your weight will act as a counter-balance to the person on rappel. The anchor gets double loaded: his and yours. This is the pulley effect. The rapide or belay ring is acting as a (inefficient) pulley.

[koentje]

In the picture you provided, it acts as a stopper knot and the load the anchor sees would be just the weight of the person on rappel. When you activate the device to lower someone, it appears you clip into the small ring of the Figure 8 with a tether off your harness. After untying the Figure 8, you place your weight on it and release rope though it as though belaying. At that point your weight will act as a counter-balance to the person on rappel. The anchor gets double loaded: his and yours. This is the pulley effect. The rapide or belay ring is acting as a (inefficient) pulley.

I see ! But it would be interesting to measure how much extra weight is put on the rapide. Double it is not, the idea is that you're still carrying a lot of your weight on your feet and don't go dangling off the rope.

Like you would belaying a climber in a top rope situation, exactly the same.

Now you know what to do in your spare time ;)

[sonnylawrence]

Yes, you are describing the inefficiency of the pulley. If it was frictionless, the heavier person would head toward the deck as the other was launched toward the rapide. You are correct, it is not truly "double" loaded. Next week I will play with that with an aluminum belay ring, Imlay polyester 9 mm rope and post the numbers. Nice discussion Koen. Thanks,

[koentje]

Yes, you are describing the inefficiency of the pulley. If it was frictionless, the heavier person would head toward the deck as the other was launched toward the rapide. You are correct, it is not truly "double" loaded. Next week I will play with that with an aluminum belay ring, Imlay polyester 9 mm rope and post the numbers. Nice discussion Koen. Thanks,

Thank you ! I hadn't considered the extra weight for a moment. I'm really curious what numbers will come up.

Anyone want to take a bet for a beer ;) ?

[Paul Nelson]

In the picture you provided, it acts as a stopper knot and the load the anchor sees would be just the weight of the person on rappel. When you activate the device to lower someone, it appears you clip into the small ring of the Figure 8 with a tether off your harness. After untying the Figure 8, you place your weight on it and release rope though it as though belaying. At that point your weight will act as a counter-balance to the person on rappel. The anchor gets double loaded: his and yours. This is the pulley effect. The rapide or belay ring is acting as a (inefficient) pulley.

I was thinking that after you clip in with your second tether (cows tail), and untie the knot, that the figure-8 would still be up against the rapide. There would be no tension on your tether; its just there to make sure the rope cannot jump of the figure-8. In this case the anchor would be taking just the load of the person on rope. The load should be about the same as a munter hitch.

In this situation, your primary safety line should be cliped into another point on the anchor. I you only clip into the figure-8, and then rope becomes unwieghted, you could go down very quickly!

[koentje]

I was thinking that after you clip in with your second tether (cows tail), and untie the knot, that the figure-8 would still be up against the rapide. There would be no tension on your tether; its just there to make sure the rope cannot jump of the figure-8. In this case the anchor would be taking just the load of the person on rope. The load should be about the same as a munter hitch.

In this situation, your primary safety line should be cliped into another point on the anchor. I you only clip into the figure-8, and then rope becomes unwieghted, you could go down very quickly!

The idea is to pull the fig 8 off the rapide to prevent any pinching/snagging of the rope. But if you unlock it and it runs correctly there's indeed no reason to pull it off (and add weight).

[Paul Nelson]

As for setting up the munter-mule on the carabiner only, without passing through the rapide to ease unlocking/rope feed, that raises this question -- why not clip the carabiner into the anchor seperately from the rapide (instead of into the rapide), and then feed the rope through the rapide, and setup the munter-mule contingency off the carabiner as usual. By having carabiner and rapide next to each other in the anchor, instead of clipped together, the feed side of the rope will be hanging slightly above the munter-mule off the carabiner, eliminating any rope snag possibility between the rapide and carabiner. Any disadvantage to doing it this way, as opposed to the 'normal' setup in Rich's picture?

Actually, what you describe is a better way to rig for contingency. Clipping into the rapide, as shown in Rich's picture, is not the best way. I did this once, and will never do it again. The reason is the rope can slip below the carabiner and pinch itself against the rapide. When that happens you cannot feed rope. It is very difficult to pull the rope from under the wieghted carabiner. In my case, I had the person bounce to unweight the rope while I pulled it free. If it was a free pitch it would have been a big problem.

[Paul Nelson]

The idea is to pull the fig 8 off the rapide to prevent any pinching/snagging of the rope. But if you unlock it and it runs correctly there's indeed no reason to pull it off (and add weight).

Since you have experience with this technique, do you find it is frequently necessary to pull the figure-8 off of the rapide so the rope does not snag? Is there a way to rig it so the rope is more likely to run free without hang-ups?

What I also like about the method, is if you need to quickly add a haul system to rasie a person. There is no quick draw or carabiner that is in the way or needs to be undone.

[koentje]

Since you have experience with this technique, do you find it is frequently necessary to pull the figure-8 off of the rapide so the rope does not snag? Is there a way to rig it so the rope is more likely to run free without hang-ups?

What I also like about the method, is if you need to quickly add a haul system to rasie a person. There is no quick draw or carabiner that is in the way or needs to be undone.


To be frank, I've never had to lower someone in an emergency with this technique. The last time I had to do that "real life" is ages ago (if I recall well that was when a newbie turned upside down and couldn't get herself upright anymore due to acute stress and her world suddenly upside down :D ), that was in the time when munter/mule was the standard everywhere.

I was lowered myself once in an emergency and that was on a mule/munter too if I'm correct (got a loop around my neck which nearly broke it and on top of that was suffocating me, don't ask me how that happened :mad: ). So that technique works, no question.

But after trying the fig. 8 block most switch & change techniques. So in each course we teach and practice it and yes, now and again there's no movement after unlocking the fig.8.
Or some movement but not as fluidly as it should be (like a munter/mule :D ).

But not everytime. And a little tug on the fig 8 does the trick and you can start lowering "at will". Try it, you'll get the feel of it soon enough- it's very easy, no nuclear science here (nor anywhere else in canyoneering !).

When rigging it the only thing to watch out for is that you don't rig it in such a way that the horizontal rope/bend between the two eyes of the fig 8 isn't pinched against something. It doesn't matter once you pull it away from the rapide but try to avoid that, it's "cleaner".

[koentje]

S
What I also like about the method, is if you need to quickly add a haul system to rasie a person. There is no quick draw or carabiner that is in the way or needs to be undone.

With this method, if you want to raise someone in a real hurry you just clip into the fig 8 or put your descender on that end of the rope (if you need to go all the way down), unclip yourself from the main anchor and use yourself as a counterweight. You need to help manually to raise the other end (due to the friction on the rapide) but that works well if the weight difference or pressure from a pounding waterfall isn't too much.

If you don't want to go all the way down make a somewhat longer safety tether, act as a counterweight for a few feet, put one and then a second ascender past the fig 8 "knot" and start "jugging" back up to the anchor. Repeat process of counterweight/jugging until the victim is on deck.

You can do something similar with a munter/mule or any other setup but that's more complicated to explain - and takes a lot longer.

[catware11]

I learned the figure 8 contingency anchor method at the Int'l 'vous this past April in Greece. I've used it ever since. It is much easier for me to remember than the munter-mule, and I always carry a spare figure 8 on my harness anyway for backup incase I or someone else lose their primary rappel device.

I *have* had to use it to lower in real life. In my case, I tied the fig 8 contingency, showed the people up top how it was done, and rappelled down the rope to realize I didn't have enough rope to reach the bottom. They undid the figure 8 and lowered me the rest of the way, and secured it again with no problem.

The way I learned it was with a single carabiner on the small hole of the figure 8 to keep the rope from jumping over (small chance of that, but with the carabiner there is much less chance). However, to secure the rope, I was taught to just pull a loop through the big hole, give it a half twist, and hook it over the small hole / carabiner pair. This secures it nicely and is very, very easy to undo. Also, when lowering, I wasn't taught to clip in to the figure 8, but we just let it rest against the rappel ring on the anchor.

[koentje]

I learned it with a single carabiner on the small hole of the figure 8 to keep the rope from jumping over (small chance of that, but with the carabiner there is much less chance). However, to secure the rope, I was taught to just pull a loop through the big hole, give it a half twist, and hook it over the small hole / carabiner pair. This secures it nicely and is very, very easy to undo. Also, when lowering, I wasn't taught to clip in to the figure 8, but we just let it rest against the rappel ring on the anchor.

See, never too old to learn, I didn't know of that trick of locking it off - thanks !

You coming to the intl rv in Greece/north of Athens next year ?

[DJ Meding]

Played with this setup in the garage today and liked it a lot. In essence it combines a biner block and munter mule, correct? You have replaced the biner with a figure 8 and then tied a releasable hitch onto the 8. This actually removes a step or two in a lowering rescue situation over the biner block.

My first question is if you put a bite back through the large hole and looped it over the small hole biner assembly would it not make it less releasable?

Second question is in reference to the illustration on the French site. I cinched up everything after step 10 and it held my weight with no slippage. At this point the system is completely releasable with only a pull on the non-weighted side of the rope. If I followed the remaining steps 11 and 12 the system was no longer releasable without first untieing something. Did I do something wrong or is that the intent of those steps? I tried to use a translation program in order to read the text but it completely butchered the descriptions.

Thanks Koen for adding another tool to the arsenal. I will teach this to everyone out here at our next practice session.

Dave

[catware11]

My first question is if you put a bite back through the large hole and looped it over the small hole biner assembly would it not make it less releasable?

I'm assuming you're referring to the method I was taught (by Evan actually, time to give him credit) for locking this off.

When you pull a small bight back through the large hole, you give it a half twist to make sure the tail (free, loose) end will end up on top of the final knot. This makes it easy to pull the bight back off the small hole to release the knot and lower someone. If this tail ends up underneath another rope, then it will become cinched and be impossible to undo to lower someone when weighted. Just make sure you give it a half twist and have the tail on top. Hope this helps!

[sonnylawrence]

My first question is if you put a bite back through the large hole and looped it over the small hole biner assembly would it not make it less releasable?

Second question is in reference to the illustration on the French site. I cinched up everything after step 10 and it held my weight with no slippage. At this point the system is completely releasable with only a pull on the non-weighted side of the rope. If I followed the remaining steps 11 and 12 the system was no longer releasable without first untieing something. Did I do something wrong or is that the intent of those steps?
Dave
There are times when you want a system to be easily releasable and other times when you do not. If you are standing right there completely attentive, it is okay to have it super-easy to release. But what if there is a lot going on, you are moving around, tying, untying, blowing your nose, etc.? Then you may want to rig it such that it is competely tied off. Totally safe. Both the figure 8 from Koen and Munter Mule with overhand tie off do this. It is an extra step but makes it bomb proof.

[rambler-joe]

Whadayamean ?!? An 8 excess gear ??? It should be basic :D

A figure 8 is an excellent device for training newbies or for putting massive twists in your rope. We always rappel on 'inline' devices ie rack, atc or crossed crabs.

[rambler-joe]

Thanks for the pic koentje. I will have it translated and post the English version. I WILL try the figure 8 method and if it's as good as everyone seems to think it is, then one extra bit of gear is not all that much weight to carry.
RJ.

[rambler-joe]

I'm assuming you're referring to the method I was taught (by Evan actually, time to give him credit) for locking this off.

When you pull a small bight back through the large hole, you give it a half twist to make sure the tail (free, loose) end will end up on top of the final knot. This makes it easy to pull the bight back off the small hole to release the knot and lower someone. If this tail ends up underneath another rope, then it will become cinched and be impossible to undo to lower someone when weighted. Just make sure you give it a half twist and have the tail on top. Hope this helps!

If you lock off the figure 8 in this way, don't you then have to unlock it before you can connect the 8 to your own belay point. If this is so you will have the system unlocked, and potentially unsafe, while an emergency situation is in progress.:confused:

[rcwild]

A figure 8 is an excellent device for training newbies or for putting massive twists in your rope.

Not necessarily. If you set your rope length before rappelling, the twists created with an eight rigged in "standard" mode won't be an issue. If you are rappelling on two strands of rope, rig the device in "canyon" aka "rapid" mode. The rope makes a straighter path through the device, so it will twist less.

Pros and cons to all devices.

[Canyonbug]

If you lock off the figure 8 in this way, don't you then have to unlock it before you can connect the 8 to your own belay point. If this is so you will have the system unlocked, and potentially unsafe, while an emergency situation is in progress.:confused:

Not so. Once you unlock the 8 it is essentially a blocked rope with the 8 up against the rapide. You can at that point leave the 8 there and lower just like off of a Munter. If you would like to clip into the 8 and pull it away from the rapide you then attach your cow's tail to the 8 and pull it away to keep rope from maybe jamming. Not clipping into the 8 does not make the system unsafe. You just need to keep a hand on the brake line.

[koentje]

Not so. Once you unlock the 8 it is essentially a blocked rope with the 8 up against the rapide. You can at that point leave the 8 there and lower just like off of a Munter. If you would like to clip into the 8 and pull it away from the rapide you then attach your cow's tail to the 8 and pull it away to keep rope from maybe jamming. Not clipping into the 8 does not make the system unsafe. You just need to keep a hand on the brake line.

There have been some close calls with the rope "jumping off" a fig 8 in that mode. Don't ask me how they did that, but it happened. Probably by installing it "loose".

Murphy's law: if it can happen, it will happen.

Clipping in a carabiner in the small hole lessens the chances, clipping in a quickdraw makes it more or less bombproof safe but you'll need to undo it for the "other" lock-off (with a quickdraw it can still jump off but you'll retain some braking power while the rope saws through the quickdraw :D ).

[rambler-joe]

Not necessarily. If you set your rope length before rappelling, the twists created with an eight rigged in "standard" mode won't be an issue. If you are rappelling on two strands of rope, rig the device in "canyon" aka "rapid" mode. The rope makes a straighter path through the device, so it will twist less.

Pros and cons to all devices.
My understanding is that the twist is in the 'kern' of the rope and not only the obvious twisting of the whole rope. If you run a few rappels using 8's and then put an inline device on the rope the apparent twisting, actually untwisting the kern, is quite severe.
To clear up a small terminology issue, when you say 'standard rig' I assume you mean through the big hole and over the small, and 'canyon rig' is through the big and then clipped into the holding crab.
I love the feedback on this site.
Henry Ford once said 'If you think you can or you think you can't, you're right':rolleyes:

[rcwild]

My understanding is that the twist is in the 'kern' of the rope and not only the obvious twisting of the whole rope. If you run a few rappels using 8's and then put an inline device on the rope the apparent twisting, actually untwisting the kern, is quite severe.
To clear up a small terminology issue, when you say 'standard rig' I assume you mean through the big hole and over the small, and 'canyon rig' is through the big and then clipped into the holding crab.
I love the feedback on this site.
Henry Ford once said 'If you think you can or you think you can't, you're right':rolleyes:


Your description of "standard" vs "canyon" (aka "rapid") modes are correct.

Happy to hear you are enjoying our site. Thank you for your participation and contributions.

[rcwild]

During the 5-day course I taught here in Costa Rica, I made it a point to teach several types of contingency rigs ...

1. Munter/Mule
2. Figure 8 rigged in canyon mode on the anchor. Tie-off on spine of carabiner from which the figure 8 is hanging.
3. Figure 8 block, with tie-off illustrated in the French manual.
4. Figure 8 block, with tie-off illustrated in the Spanish (Aragon Mountaineering) manual.

After letting the students play with all of them for a while, I conducted an unscientific survey to determine favorites. Mixed results. Several preferred the munter/mule. Several preferred the 8 in canyon mode. Several preferred the 8 block.

I think one reason for the differing opinions had to do with who was on the rope. For example: a small woman from Greece could not release the Spanish version of the tie-off with the weight of a large man on the rope. Some of the guides here are using large rescue 8s. They liked the 8 block. Others with small 8s did not like it. But they are using ropes that are quite fat -- 11mm plus -- which made it difficult to tie-off, especially using the French method.

[rcwild]

I'm assuming you're referring to the method I was taught (by Evan actually, time to give him credit) for locking this off.

When you pull a small bight back through the large hole, you give it a half twist to make sure the tail (free, loose) end will end up on top of the final knot. This makes it easy to pull the bight back off the small hole to release the knot and lower someone. If this tail ends up underneath another rope, then it will become cinched and be impossible to undo to lower someone when weighted. Just make sure you give it a half twist and have the tail on top. Hope this helps!

When Michelle posted this, I had no idea what she was talking about. I had only seen the tie-offs illustrated in the French and Spanish manuals. Evan showed it to me, Sonny and others in Greece. Very simple. I'm going to play around with it (and I know Sonny will, too). So far, I like it a lot. I'll take some photos today and post them.

[rcwild]

The figure eight is rigged in standard mode. The rope strand on the right is the rappel strand. The strand on the left is coming out of the rope bag.

[rcwild]

Take a bight of rope from between the figure eight and the rope bag and feed it through the figure eight.

[rcwild]

Add a half-twist to the bight, then loop the bight over the neck of the figure eight.

[sonnylawrence]

I have now used it a lot in moving water. I like it the most of any system I tried. I have released/lowered a person and been on the rope when it was released. Evan Jenkins clips a carabiner into the small hole. Once he is comfortable the system is set and the person on rope safe, he clips the carabiner around the pull strand. He says is slides down the rock more easily during the retrieval. I spent a glorious day with 5 Spaniards who also used this system sans the carabiner.
Munter Mule needs to be used a lot in other contexts due to it usefulness as a releasable system such as when connecting a rescue rig to an anchor. Or of course when a person does not have a figure eight.

[rcwild]

You can clip a carabiner to the small hole of the figure eight and onto the bag strand of rope to add more security. According to Evan this may make retrieval easier, too.

[rcwild]

This system appeals to me also because there is no need to convert if to a block or toss 'n go for the last person.

It has the benefits Koen described earlier in this thread without the drawbacks of the other tie-off methods.

We'll be playing with it during courses and rendezvous in Arizona. Anxious to hear what others think of it. Start playing around in your back yard.

[Paul Nelson]

I have used the method Koen posted (French Method?), which is also shown in the 2006 Petzl catalogue, which is basically the figure-8 in normal mode with a munter mule.
http://www.efcanyon.net/debrayable_sur_huit.htm
It is very easy to untie. I have used it when the rapide is against the rock and I have not had any problems with it binding and preventing it from releasing. When loaded the figure-8 seems to flip perpendicular to the rock which prevents it from binding. However, my trials are rather limited and I will not declare it problem free.

The other version described by Michelle (Spanish Method ?) and shown in your pictures seems a little more difficult to untie.

Have you compared the two methods? Pros and cons of each?

I am moving to this technique because of its advantages and simplicity to rig. However, as the last person down, I remove the figure-8 and install a carabineer block. I think it may have a less chance of getting caught on something during the pull down.

Edited on May 5, 2007:
I am calling the method discribed by Michelle and photos from Rich as the Evan method, since he is the one who taught it to Michelle.

[sonnylawrence]

I used both tie off systems. The one Rich shows on this thread is the one to go with. Don't worry about converting to a biner block. It pulls just fine. As always there will be exceptions.

[sonnylawrence]

To add to this discussion: we need to play with different size figure eights and types of rope. The Spaniards had the big honking figure eights. I have a smaller one. I can imagine that 11 mm rope on a small figure eight might be more likely to come untied. So this needs to be investigated. Stiff vs. soft lay rope may make a difference, e.g., Canyon Pro vs. Maxwear. It is certainly possible to come up with a scenario where you would want to do the French or Spanish tie off rather than the one shown in the pictures on this thread. There is no perfect answer.

[rcwild]

The tie-off method I am referring to as French is the one illustrated in the link. It does not use a mule, but two half-hitches.

The one I am referring to as being from the Spanish manual has not been shown here. It involves stuffing the bight under the strand that is already around the neck of the figure eight. I used it for a while a few years ago, but discovered students had problems with it. Can be difficult to release if a heavy person is on the rope.

[wiese]

Disclaimer: Trusting you life to something you read on the internet or listening to me is just plain stupid. You are responsible for your own ass. Knowledge is your only protection. Learn to do things right the first time, especially when your life depends on them.

yet another Disclaimer: this is an advanced system that will not hurt you at all, but it WILL KILL your partner if you don't know what is going on.

Whoaa took a little bit of time to re-read 60+ post in this tread. this post is a little of topic from the direction the thread is going right now but it is in regards to contingency anchors. (i decided to type all this up and somehow deleted it.) so here we go once again:)



That's why the munter-mule on a carabiner is going the way of the dodo in European canyons. Too many problems with unlocking the contraption, getting the munter pinched off/blocked against some rock, feeding the rope... you name it.yea, you name it, i am not that big of a fan of the munter mule as the contingency anchor of choice for numerous reasons.



There are pros and cons to any system, including using a figure 8 as a "contingency block" as Koen described. Personally, I don't like giving up my rappel device for the rigging at the anchor. But ... to each his own. Experiment with several different methods, pick your favorite and master it.
what i found that works for ME, is the use of specific ATCs, like the Reversino, Reverso or ATC-Guide. i rarely run canyons with others but when i do i alway set up the system using an ATC-Guide. it eliminates a lot of the problems encountered with pinching and being unable to "unlock". i also prefer this system because i moved away from biner/knot blocks and this system doesn't require that the rope to be ran through the quicklink/rap ring.

this is the fastest contingency system to set up and break down out there. (unless we now call Bubby holding a rope a contingency system) i also feel it is the safest and simplest to use there is.

now for the CONS:
1 and 2. ties up a specific piece of gear that you will most likely have to go out and buy.
3. you have to learn how to use it and have the gear available to lower the "victim" smoothly.
4. you run into the same problems as the other systems if you have to pass a knot.

petzl's or BD's? the ATC-Guide hands down, i have the reverso and an old prototype before it had ridges. you just cannot "lower" smoothly under control with these. if you want to play with this system pick up the guide. and the next time you are the "guide" down your local canyon you will want to give me a hug when you see me.

if you love pictures.
http://www.bdel.com/gear/atc_guide.php

take care
EW

[rcwild]

what i found that works for ME, is the use of specific ATCs, like the Reversino, Reverso or ATC-Guide. i rarely run canyons with others but when i do i alway set up the system using an ATC-Guide. it eliminates a lot of the problems encountered with pinching and being unable to "unlock". i also prefer this system because i moved away from biner/knot blocks and this system doesn't require that the rope to be ran through the quicklink/rap ring.

Hey Eric,

How 'bout some more details. How are you setting it up? Rope locked off with a mule on the carabiner? Or?

You don't HAVE to run the rope through the rap ring, BUT you'll have to sooner or later to retrieve the rope ?? so why not do it right away ??

[wiese]

Rich

the "best" pics are on the link above under "instructions for use". a lot like petzl drawings, but not as good and pretty wordy.



You don't HAVE to run the rope through the rap ring, BUT you'll have to sooner or later to retrieve the rope ?? so why not do it right away ??and no you don't have to "RUN" the rope through the rap rings, nor do i regularly. i will on small drops when i rap on both strands, but thats about it. maybe 1 out of 10 times i do, but the rest of the time i don't. i think i mentioned somewhere here on the forum about how i no longer use any type of biner/knot block.

hope BD's drawings helps if not i will snap a few for ya.

take care
EW

[rcwild]

Okay, I understand how you're rigging your contingency system. But I still don't understand how you (last person) are coming down. In the BD illustration, the rope is rigged with the ATC and two carabiners. I know you're not leaving them behind on every anchor, so you must be threading the rope through the rappel ring, removing the biners and ATC, then rappelling.

If you have to pull up rope to thread it through the rappel ring before you come down, are you really saving any time with your initial rigging?

Or are you using a bight of rope from the initial rigging for a macrame or similar system?

Or ??

[rcwild]

Another concern ... we set up releasable systems in high current situations so we can get a stuck person down quickly. To make the point in courses, I ask students how long they can hold their breath. 1.5 minutes often comes out as a good figure to use (although some students consider that long).

I would not recommend the system in Figure 1 in BD's illustration as it will be diffficult to operate – one hand pulling one way on tether, while the other hand operates the lowering strand. System in Figure 2 is better.

If you don't have the tether and pulley pre-rigged, are you confident you can set it up and complete the lower in less than 1.5 minutes?

If pre-riggging, is the system really faster to set up?

I assume you're not pre-rigging with yourself in the system.

Just so you know ... I'm not trying to slam your system. I see some advantages to it and am trying to determine if all these issues have been considered and if it warrants inclusion in the book.

[Canyonbug]

This is still a very good ongoing thread. I like the photos Rich. I have started teaching this system to a select few students but using the tie off method with a Mule knot. This does look simpler and easier to tie off, if it holds which I would have no doubt if you have posted.

One question I have that I don't see addressed. When you are required to activate the system, ie. lower someone down. Do you untie it and just leave the Figure 8 next to the carabiner and lower that way? Or are you attaching the the Figure 8 to your harness with the small hole and lowering them off of your harness through the Rapide?

[rcwild]

Once you take the loop off the neck of the figure eight, you are in lowering mode, so it's important to be in control of the brake strand (the one between the eight and the rope bag) while you're doing it.

You can leave the figure eight up against the rappel ring to lower or, as Koen suggested, clip your safety tether in the small hole of the eight and back away from the rappel ring. If you do that, keep in mind you are now lowering off your harness and using the rappel ring as a pulley, so forces on the anchor will increase.

[wiese]

Rich


But I still don't understand how you (last person) are coming down. In the BD illustration, the rope is rigged with the ATC and two carabiners. I know you're not leaving them behind on every anchor, so you must be threading the rope through the rappel ring, removing the biners and ATC, then rappelling.
I am not leaving any part of the contingency anchor behind, just as you would not leave your canyon quickdraw with a munter tied to it. you break down your system and install your new one (biner/knot block) then rappel.


Or are you using a bight of rope from the initial rigging for a macrame or similar system?

Or ??
yea something like this, but i would rather not go into it now, nor hijack this thread. been talking to Sonny and he was kind enough to offer testing it for strength, but i used a tree and a truck recently. the "anchor/rap ring webbing" broke before the other parts, that was good enough for me. i also recently broke 50 rappels on the sharp end and the largest retrieval to date is 480'. its golden and the way i choice to retrieve my rope, we can talk about it later.


Just so you know ... I'm not trying to slam your system.its all good, but i hope you realize i am not trying to slam you either. your comments though are like commenting back in the day on an old WC Friend before actually holding them in your hand. everything will make sense once you actually use them. IMHO this is really the way to go, and i believe BD's and Petz'sl as well.

but to answer your questions:


If you don't have the tether and pulley pre-rigged, are you confident you can set it up and complete the lower in less than 1.5 minutes?assuming the 1.5 minutes is b/c i am in a Class C, i would have it set up before the 1st went down if playing with water. and yes, this system becomes active in the fraction of the time that a munter mule does. i can also set it up pretty fast. i have a small loop of cord tied to the ATC release hole. so all i need is a biner and a sling from my shoulder.



If pre-riggging, is the system really faster to set up?i rarely pre-rig it. i am running canyons with people i consider to be skilled.
(but yea it is, have the "guide for the day" just sling it with a 2' runner and throw it over his shoulder.)

i could be wrong on this, but i feel you see this as a negative when it is really a positive and this is where i feel the system shines.

this is because when we are out with our partner(s) (of equal skill) we get slack on safety in ways. i mean if you found yourself running with Dave and Charley down a canyon would everyone be going off a contingency anchor? well its there in case one of you did need it, (rock, to much alcohol, who knows etc). but these will most likely never happen, but this system allows for your roped to live so much longer as it is able to be adjusted a few feet every rappel so its not running over that edge on the same spot over and over.

like i said at the start, "this is an advanced system that will not hurt you at all, but it WILL KILL your partner if you don't know what is going on." if you're confident with you level of skill, this will get you actually using a contingency anchor, not just know how to tie/use it.


I would not recommend the system in Figure 1 in BD's illustration as it will be diffficult to operate – one hand pulling one way on tether, while the other hand operates the lowering strand. System in Figure 2 is better.
I assume you're not pre-rigging with yourself in the system.
this will actually make sense when you use it and figure 1 is enough a lot of the time. the system acts a lot like a GriGri the "break" hand is there but do you really need it?



You don't HAVE to run the rope through the rap ring, BUT you'll have to sooner or later to retrieve the rope ?? so why not do it right away ??
feel free to run it through just like you would for your munter mule to be biner/knot blocked later. if you do run the rope through the quicklink/rap ring you can very quickly transition to rappel. after you biner/knot block, you simply remove the top biner (the biner connecting the ATC-guide to the anchor) and clip in next to the other biner. now take both of these biners and attach them to your belay loop, then rap. ((note: depending on your rope, you need both biners most likely b/c you are not using the teeth side.) OR just remove top biner and flip the ATC around) ...........ok pull rope, head to your next anchor with your ATC-Guide still dangling between your legs because of the length was set with your contingency anchor before you biner/knot blocked it. run the rope through the quicklink/rap ring and set up the ATC-Guide. ...........rinse and repeat. its pretty fast.

hopes this helps
take care
EW

[DJ Meding]

I have been practicing with this system in the garage the last couple of days and will be demonstrating it to everyone at our practice session this weekend. In my trials I have found that if you leave the 8 up against the rap ring or rapide it takes a bit more force for the rope to pull through than if you were to attach your tether and pull it away. If you had someone small on the rope they may not have enough weight to lower them if you leave the 8 against the rapide. On the other hand if you pull the system away with someone large on rope coupled with the force of moving water then you may have trouble controling the lowering process.
Dave

[wiese]

not the best, because of this did not include it earlier. petzl's is a pain in the ass to release and i don't recommend it, but here is the video of it in action.

http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=204#

take care
EW

[rcwild]

Eric,

I don't consider any of your posts on this thread "hijacking". On the contrary. This is a thread about contingency anchors and you've come up with a good one. You may not realize this, but after Dave returned from Hawaii and told me how brilliant you are, I added you to my personal list of "influential posters". I read and try every new idea you present here.

I want to understand every component, pro and con of your system. It is not the set up of the system or its operation that I'm asking about. The ATC Guide is being used like a GiGi, which I've used many times leading clients on multi-pitch climbs. I've used my GiGi to rig ropes to change the rope abrasion point (which can also be done with a Shunt). I have a GiGi, a Trango Magic, a Petzl Reverso and an ATC Guide. Each of these devices could be used to set up your contingency rig or to change the abrasion point.

The questions that remain all relate to the process – from initial arrival of the "guide of the day" to rope retrieval. Normally, the process would go something like this:

1. Guide of the day (GOTD) arrives at the station, pulls the top end of rope out of the bag, feeds it through the rappel ring and sets the rope length.

2. GOTD rigs the rope using a system appropriate to the conditions and the group (e.g. contingency).
3. Everyone rappels, except the GOTD.

4. GOTD may need to re-rig the system to make it retrievable (e.g. convert contingency rig to block).
5. GOTD rappels.
6. Rope is pulled.

You've explained and illustrated #2 and #3. Still curious about #1 and #4. Sounds like you're alluding to a new rope retrieval system (which Sonny is testing for you?) that eliminates the need to pre-thread the rope through the rappel ring.

Inquiring minds want to know. :confused:

[rcwild]

I have been practicing with this system in the garage the last couple of days and will be demonstrating it to everyone at our practice session this weekend. In my trials I have found that if you leave the 8 up against the rap ring or rapide it takes a bit more force for the rope to pull through than if you were to attach your tether and pull it away. If you had someone small on the rope they may not have enough weight to lower them if you leave the 8 against the rapide. On the other hand if you pull the system away with someone large on rope coupled with the force of moving water then you may have trouble controling the lowering process.
Dave

There will also be variations based on rope diameter as Sonny mentioned. Anyone interested in using these systems should practice with different combinations of weight and rope diameter – 8mm rope with a heavy person vs 10mm rope with a light person – before you actually need to deploy it in a canyon.

Be careful out there. Have fun. BE SAFE.

[DJ Meding]

Welcome home Rich. Looking forward to hearing about all your adventures this year while we are in Mexico. You must still be on Greece time to be posting so early.
Dave

[rcwild]

You must still be on Greece time to be posting so early.
Dave

Yes, and it's really irritating my wife.

[catware11]

You must still be on Greece time to be posting so early.
Dave

So what's your excuse?

:p

[wiese]

Rich


which Sonny is testing for you? he was kind enough to offer testing it but i chose to "test" it myself with a tree and truck.

from the email i sent Sonny, "i ASSuME the breaking strength is way beyond the loads i am putting on it. i have rapped of this system well over 50 times with out being backed up. i am just hesitant to tell others it is "OK" to play with it when i have no clue on its break strength. " i ended up breaking the webbing around the tree before i break the "system". that was good enough for me.

this retrieval system has nothing to do with contingency anchors and i feel including it here in this thread will be hijacking it. i will just start a new thread. because WE are getting off topic as it is and need to be heading back to the topic at hand, contingency anchors.


I have a GiGi, a Trango Magic, a Petzl Reverso and an ATC Guide. Each of these devices could be used to set up your contingency rig or to change the abrasion point.i have never held a GiGi (and everyone i talked to says Reverso > Gigi), but the uses i am describing with the ATC-Guide are totally different that the others when it comes to lowering. i would be like comparing th uses of WC's ridged Friend and CCH's offset/hybrid Alien. both are cams, both do function the same way, but the first time you stand up on an Alien, you feel like your cheating.

If anyone has the ATC-Guide play with it in your garage. Once someone plays with it the way it was intended a light bulb should magically appear above your head as you say Holy........ It was designed to be used this way compared to the ATC-XP, that a lot of us have as well. Grab a beer, a lawn chair, and something to direct air traffic with then go to town on your lawn:)

take care
EW

[rcwild]

When the Trango Magic first came out I started carrying one for quite a while and liked it a lot. Can't remember why I stopped carrying it.

Pulled one out this afternoon and played around with it for the releasable figure eight block described and illustrated in this thread. Only in my back yard, not real situation, but it worked well. The long "neck" may be more secure in holding the lock-off loop. Small hole might present a problem with thicker ropes. I was using 9.2mm.

The GiGi end of the device can be rigged to work like Eric's ATC Guide system and to change rope abrasion point. I've also used it as a brake bar rappelling device (with the carabiner on my safety tether so I don't lose the biner when I reach the end of the rope).

I'm going to start carrying one again to play around with it.

Tom carries the Trango Magic at canyoneeringusa.com (http://canyoneeringusa.com/shop/view_product.php?product=tr884000)

[DJ Meding]

So what's your excuse?

:p

Actually it isn't as early for me as it is for Rich, and even later for me than you. My days usually start between 4-5am just to get everything done. It really sucks when I head out west waking up before the birds.
Dave

[rcwild]

15 students in a Technical Canyoneering Course here in Phoenix. Taught both munter/mule and figure eight block with loop lock-off. Figure eight block is easier to teach and easier for students to remember.

We'll be using it today to practice at the first waterfall in Cibecue. Will report next time I get internet access.

[ratagonia]

i am just hesitant to tell others it is "OK" to play with it when i have no clue on its break strength. " i ended up breaking the webbing around the tree before i break the "system". that was good enough for me.

EW

Excellent responsibility taking.

While I have not studied the system you are presenting here, as a general statement, it is also a good thing, responsibility-wise, to consider how the system would work with different characteristics of rope. Sometimes a knot-loop-etc system will work well with one particular rope, but exhibit problems when used with other lines. Like the toggle-omnisling setup, works well most of the time, but on 8mm ropes that are soft, it can pull through and fail (at least, that is what I remember Sonny and Dave reporting).

Folks use a wide variety of ropes out there, it behooves us to state EXACTLY what rope and what condition is used when testing. It is impossible to test every combo - but when conducting tests it is helpful to include a small selection of the most popular rope styles in use.

Depending on the system, strength is not always a major issue. Rappelling, we rarely place loads on gear that are difficult to achieve. Reliability in anchor mode is of prime importance (obviously), but reliability in release is also rather important.

Tom (master of the obvious statement)

[Turtle]

Awhile back, Michelle had noted that there may be some significance to the direction of the half twist used in tying off the eight-block contingency. Michelle suggested twisting such that the free (rope bag) strand was "on top".

If I understand the issue correctly, don't Rich's picture show it twisted the other direction?

And has anyone else observed a sensitivity to the direction of twist? Is the one shown in Rich's picture really harder to release?

[DJ Meding]

And has anyone else observed a sensitivity to the direction of twist? Is the one shown in Rich's picture really harder to release?

Most definitely. We played with this on and of yesterday and today at our practice session. If the twist is not positioned correctly the rope can get pinched and make it difficult and on one occasion impossible to release. Be careful how you set it up and prctice with it before using it in the field and relying on it. When used properly it is a great system.
Dave

[sonnylawrence]

I also played with this in Greece. The tail of the rope should be oriented on top so it is able to be released when the system is loaded. I am pleased with this to the point that I would generally use it and rarely use a biner block or Munter Mule. I need to play more with the different size figure eights and diameters and "hand" of ropes we use.

[Paul Nelson]

I also played with this in Greece. The tail of the rope should be oriented on top so it is able to be released when the system is loaded. I am pleased with this to the point that I would generally use it and rarely use a biner block or Munter Mule. I need to play more with the different size figure eights and diameters and "hand" of ropes we use.

I see remembering to get the twist right as a potential problem. I have not used this method, but the French method that Koen posted and also shown in the Petzl catalogue appears to have a slight advantage in ease of tying it correctly. Because the error of the wrong twist not will be noticed until the rope is loaded and you NOW need to lower a person in a hurry!

I will need to try this method and compare it to the French method.

[evanojenkins]

Hi everyone. Great to see that the re-threaded contingency eight technique (the one described by Michael and shown in photos by Rich on page 6 of this thread) has made it to the forum in the US – I guess this type of cross-pollination is one real advantage of international rendez-vous.

Given that I think I’ve described this technique to about 10 different people from the US now with different amounts of background info & explanation, I thought it might be useful if I typed up my full experience with the technique here to clarify things and hopefully answer some of the questions in the preceding posts. For those of you already trying it, much of this will have become obvious so apologies for boring you. Hopefully some of it will still be interesting.

Firstly, to give credit, I was shown the technique by Stefan in 2003 (and then the “leave a carabiner dangling in the small hole� refinement in 2004) as his standard rope block. I was immediately impressed by its obvious advantage: It’s as quick and slick to install, pull, & remove as a biner block, but is at the same time it’s a fully functioning contingency system!

Since then I have adopted it as my “1st choice� method of blocking the rope and have used it on the vast majority of simple raps that I have rigged in the last 4 years. I have to say that of all the “new� tools that I’ve added to my toolkit, this is one of the most useful. It is also used by most of my canyoning friends as their “1st choice block�. So far no-one I know has had a significant problem with it.

Rope types tried: I have used it extensively on 8mm Canyon pro, 9.2mm Canyon, and many other 9-11mm static rope types without any problem. Very stiff 11mm ropes bed down less well than thinner more suppler ropes, so I’d be even more certain to leave a carabiner dangling from the small hole to ensure the rope can’t flick over the stem with these ropes. 8mm can feel a bit slick if lowering someone very heavy

Eight types tried: I have used it on many brands of “normal� eight, Petzl’s square shaped eight, and Trango’s Magic Eight (also Salewa’s Guide Eight) without problem. The Trango Magic Eight’s big hole is quite small so it can be tricky to rethread stiff 11mm rope.

My standard process on most simple raps: I set the rope to the length of the drop and then install the rethreaded 8 block (leaving the carabiner dangling from the small hole at all times) on the dead rope side of the rapide link /rap ring – it takes ~5 seconds to fix it so similar timing to installing a biner-block. I then send the “group� (which could even be just 2 other experienced friends) down the blocked strand, before I go down last, either carrying or throwing the rope-bag. I usually clip the dangling carabiner in the small hole into the pull strand to keep the unit neat on the pull (as per Rich’s final photo), but you don’t need to. From the bottom it then pulls like any other block.

Contingency advantage: At any time while my friends are on rappel, I can immediately and effortlessly feed out extra rappel rope. To do so I just push a few inches of dead rope through the big hole of the eight to loosen the rethread, then just undo the rethread by pulling the loop of slack over the stem of the eight (and over the dangling carabiner in the small hole). Now I must hold the dead rope firmly and can pay it out through the block as needed. This conversion from a fixed block to a lowering system takes ~5 seconds with practice. The rope usually runs very smoothly as I let it through the eight (which is still sitting against the rapide link). In the extremely unlikely event that the rope is not running smoothly because it is pinching against the rock you can clip your cow’s tail into the dangling carabiner in the small hole and use your body weight to prise the eight away from the rock – in practice this is almost never necessary but worth remembering in case it happens. When I have released enough rope I can easily re-apply the rethread block with tension still on the rope, or I can choose to just hold the dead rope in my hand until the rappeller gets to the ground.

Uses of the contingency: As well as the obvious potential (but thankfully fairly uncommon) use of the contingency in an “emergency situation� (eg. Jammed rap device, etc), there are 2 other uses that I very commonly use the contingency for. These are the real reasons that motivate me to use this rigging as standard even with small groups of experienced friends when the water hazard is not high. Because we use these 2 techniques a lot (like in most canyons), we are very confident that the contingency will work when it is needed in a true emergency.

1. Can’t see bottom of drop to set rope length: In this situation I don’t waste any time peering over edges or putting out all the rope to the mid-point. I just estimate how much is needed and an experienced friend starts rapping. As soon as the first rappeller can see the bottom he either gives a thumbs up, or asks for more rope which I can give in seconds. We have a standard whistle system in Europe to help with communication (3 blasts is “lower more rope�, 1 blast is “stop�). You can give as much rope as is needed (up to the full rope length!) very smoothly. Then the rope is set for the rest. Note: If the rap is into swift water I deliberately estimate short, as I’d rather lower more rope than have him find slack swirling around in a hydraulic!

By the way this technique for setting rope length is especially cool when you can’t see the bottom and know that the drop is about half the rope length or maybe a bit more (like ~105ft and you have 200ft ropes). Before bothering to get the second rope out, just out try the rap on one rope (throw down just under half). If the first person calls for more rope feed him more through the eight, and if you see the mid-marker go through the eight, then you know you’ll need the other rope. If he gets to the bottom without you lowering through the mid-marker you know you can leave the second rope in the bag. This can be a real time & effort saver.

2. During the first rap we notice the rope rubbing on an edge: With experienced friends, as soon as we notice that there is an evil rub point on the rope we call up to “bleed the rope out�. I unblock the eight and let the rope creep extremely slowly (inch by inch) through it as the rappel continues. This prevents the same spot on the rope getting the friction and creating a core shot. (The obvious exception when we would not use this is where difficult balance manoeuvres are needed on rappel, or when it’s into a serious water hazard).

A few notes to try to answer questions from the previous posts:

Carabiner dangling in small hole: When the technique was first invented it was just done on the eight (without the dangling carabiner in the small hole) as per the picture on page 6 of this thread. This works fine, but there is a small risk of the dead rope working its way over the stem. Leaving a carabiner dangling from the small hole effectively removes this risk and adds no inconvenience. Assuming you are carrying the eight on a carabiner anyway (clipped into a gear loop) you just unclip the eight and carabiner from your harness as a single unit and install it on the rope as a single until (pulling the loop over the stem and biner). This gives complete peace of mind and I strongly recommend this as standard practice (should probably include in photos of system etc). Obviously if you’ve run out of biners for some reason than that’s a special exception!

Half twist (Turtle & Paul’s question): I know this sounds complicated when described in text (and is hard to make out from the angle of the photos), but this is really simple and shouldn’t be considered a barrier to using this technique. Once you’ve done it a couple of times you’ll never get it wrong. The acid test is that once the rethread is neatly bedded down on the eight, the dead rope should come out of the big hole in the free space “on top�, so that it can easily be undone. If you twist the wrong way the dead rope is very visibly trapped, and it looks clearly wrong. (It is correct in Rich’s pictures)

Clipping the dangling carabiner into the dead rope when you go down the rap: This was a new idea I saw getting used last summer. The idea is that it keeps it very neat for the pull down to reduce any chance of snagging. Also if you do decide to head down the rap before the end of the group (once you’re happy with the rope length and lack of rubbing) then it provides extra protection against an inexperienced team member unblocking the eight. I’ve started doing it as standard, but don’t think it’s that important.

Safety backup on the pull rope: I know there are some people who argue that any block should be secured to the anchor until the last person descends in case someone tries to rap on the pull side. I personally almost never do this (I prefer to rely on a combination of training people, managing the rap station, and tucking the pull side neatly into the bag). None-the-less YMMV, in which case you can easily do so by clipping the dangling carabiner on the small hole via a quickdraw into the anchor. Don’t be tempted to clip the dangling carabiner directly into the anchor sling (without the quickdraw) as it can get into an awkward configuration where you can’t undo it under load, and so can’t unblock the eight. Obviously if you do choose to use this technique, make very sure last person down knows he has to remove the quickdraw before descending. (I know of 2 stories of people having to re-ascend the rope becasue this "safety" link was left in place!)

Switching to biner-block for last person (Paul’s suggestion for a cleaner pull): I’ve never had a problem pulling the eight down yet, so switching to a binner-block seems like an unnecessary step. Note: One advantage of this method over the method shown in the old EFC book is there’s not a bight of rope to get caught on the pull down. If a pull down is really so nasty that you’re really worried (bushes, spikes, etc) then you could switch to a biner-block, although it’s probably better in that situation that the last person doesn’t use any block at all (go double, or anchor one strand from the bottom)

Final obvious note (but one I almost learnt the hard way a few years back): When you starting using a new block like this, explain how it works to everyone in your group. In particular make sure they realise that it is a block, so they need to rap on the correct strand (like any other block). In my example an experienced canyoneer who was totally familiar with biner-blocks, mis-recognised this technique as a different rigging (which blocks both strands). Luckily they did spot their error before they got to the edge (on the pull strand)!

I hope that’s helpful. Sorry if that was a bit long-winded! Do let me know any questions, if anything above isn’t clear, or if you discover anything interesting about the technique whilst out in the canyons!

Evan

[DJ Meding]

Evan,
Thanks for going over the finer points, this is very useful coming from someone with experience using this system. I really like it and plan on using it as a first choice block. I'm not sure if my memory is correct here but are you from England? I think I gave you a ride to one of the canyons during the Spain rondezvous a couple of years ago? You were going to be spending a few months working in the USA?
Dave

[Paul Nelson]

Evan,

Thank you for a very through reply to all the various issues mentioned in this thread. It is good to hear from someone that has been using this method for several years.

I have decided the use of a block that can also be a contingency anchor is better than the simple biner block. I have used the French method and like it, but I have concerns with the loops of rope getting caught on the pull-down; which is why I have been switching to a binner block for the last man down. I will try the other method.

For me this the way to go, because some day when you don't expect it is when your going to need to lower someone in a hurry. I will no longer be using the simple biner block as standard practice.

[wiese]

Final got to play with this and get it wet. This will by my "1st choice" for a block when blocking with others from here on out.

Evan, thanks for lending the time on the post and everyone else for sharing it. it has defiantly added a tool to the bag for me.


but this is really simple and shouldn’t be considered a barrier to using this technique. Once you’ve done it a couple of times you’ll never get it wrong.it was like a muter hitch for me, took a second but once you get it, you got it.

for what little it is worth, i feel this system will be more useful to more people than the ATC-Guide system i described. but the ATC-Guide system is the way if you do not block or run the rope through the quicklink/rap ring and might be something to look into from your own systems. (releasable selfbreaking Z-drag, etc)

if you are running canyons where things want to catch this. your cutup water bottles are easily clipped to the "small hole dangling" biner if need be.

take care
EW

[rcwild]

Charly and I both introduced this technique to students in two Technical Canyoneering Courses this past week. One major plus: students learned the system quickly and had no problem remembering it the next day (unlike the munter/mule and other figure eight block tie-offs).

I also used it during a Canyon Rescue Course and discovered several applications for it, including:

1. When converting a block to a lowering system, it can be time-consuming rigging a munter/mule between the rap ring and the progress capture device (e.g. Tibloc on canyon quickdraw). Simple and fast to remove the original block and replace with the figure eight block. This might sound silly since you can rig the figure eight block from the start, but there may be times when the group in front of you used a conventional block and you may be the person who solves their problem for them.

2. Guided rappels. When tightening the guide rope from the top, it is simpler to adjust the rope through an eight than through a clove hitch on a carabiner. We had a situation in Crystal Canyon yesterday where someone wanted their guide rope to be releasable. They set up a munter/mule on the guide rope. For the last person, the entire system had to be re-rigged to be releasable. They could have used the eight block to accomplish the same thing and there would have been no need to re-rig.

[jsostheim]

After 90 posts by really qualified people, I was wondering what 2 cents I could add to the topic with my little year of experience. Eventhough it says mostly what has already been said here, I thought some of you might like the translation of the french site. So for ze benefite of ze unverzed in ze franch language among uz, I shall tranzlate:p :

Figure 8 contingency anchor. (Literal translation of the title: releasable butted eight)

This technique is used in most rappels and should only be used with semi-static ropes that allow the descent on one strand of rope.

Objectives:
To put in place equipment that allows:
1. To move the friction point of the rope on the rock.
2. To have the possibility of descending someone who is stuck on the rope in an emergency.

Figure 8 contingency anchor:

1. Hang the rope bag from the anchor.
2. Insert the rappel rope through the rapide.
3. Set the rope length.
4. Install the descender on the strand between the rapide and the rope bag
5. Tie on the descender a mule and half a key knot.

Note: For LAMR, you may leave the system in place as you can retrieve it by pulling on the non-rappel strand. That represents a time saving in comparison to the previous system (releasable knot), which has to be broken down before the LAMAR may descend.

End of translation.

[sonnylawrence]

I used the figure 8 block with the Trango Magic at the Arizona Rendezvous. It looked odd when I tied it. I had to retie it to be sure it was done properly. I realized later that what looked odd was the device itself. Visually it threw me off. The picture shows a number of figure 8's all tied the same way. To me, at first glance, it seems they are not the same.

[charlybldr]

I just taught the figure 8 releasable block again at the Technical Canyoneering course here in Boulder. Also taught the munter/mule set up.

Although no one in the class uses a figure 8 as their primary DCD eveyone liked the figure 8 releasable block. Will this be enough to switch to a figure 8?

Maybe.

We covered the many other uses of a figure 8 and some students commented that it would probably be worth it to carry an 8 (in addition to their primary DCD) as a backup DCD and to have available for it's many and varied other uses, including use as a releasable block.

Personally, I'm going to go back to using my "Magic" for a while.

[rcwild]

Currently carrying a Pirana for rappelling and a Trango Magic for rigging.

[ratagonia]

Currently carrying a Pirana for rappelling and a Trango Magic for rigging.

The Magic is no longer carried by Trango. There's probably a few floating around various shops in the USA. I put some on order, but they come from Europe, so CanyoneeringUSA Is expecting to have them available about September 15th.

Tom

[evanojenkins]

In Europe the Magic is marketed by Salewa and called the "Salewa Guide".

There is now a slightly improved version in the shops called the "Salewa Guide Evo" - the carabiner sits better in the small hole of this version and cannot lever against the "fin" as it could in the old version.

See the link below:

http://www.salewa.com/equipment_climbing_accessories.php?chid=295&m=4&sid=4f970809fc0502737e52fce12c6b0fa1&puid=&liid=&limit=2&lang=uk&prid=127&ac=det

[rcwild]

Tom,

If you can get a deal on the Salewa version, please do. The one thing I didn't like about the Magic was the way the clip-in hole was set up. Easy to clip into one off the slots by mistake. Not an issue except for the annoyance of having to reclip. The new version appears to have solved that by making it a real hole.

If you can work something out, let me know. I'll buy a dozen from you.

[Paul Nelson]

Over the weekend I tried using the figure-8 using the method of taking a bight back through the large opening and making a twist and looping it over the neck to lock off. (The Spanish method?) The rope was 8mm Imlay and the Figure-8 was the common Black Diamond with round openings.

As I have mentioned before, the French (shown in Petzl catalog) method results in a clump of rope that could get caught on something during the pull-down. Since the Spanish method is cleaner, I started using it for the last man down. However, somehow the tie-off came undone! :eek: Now the block was rigged just like it would be for rappelling. Fortunately I noticed it very early and grabbed the pull side of the rope to stop my possible rapid descent! Since I was near the top, I was able climb back up and I replaced the block with a clove hitch on a carabineer. :) I have no idea how it came undone from the time I checked it, got on rope, grabbed the rope bag, and unclipped my safety. Until I consult with others and due more testing, I will not be using this method.

I also noticed when loaded it appeared the rope might bind against the rapide making it difficult to release unless you pull the figure-8 away from the rapide. I did not try this with a heavy load to test my observation. However, others have not mentioned this problem, so I maybe it not a problem. When using the French method I have had no problems getting the rope to release under load.

Edited on May 5, 2007:
The spanish method mention above is incorrect. In an effort to give this tie-off method a name, I am now going to call it the 'Evan method', since he taught it to Michelle, and she posted the discription on this website. I realize Evan may not have invented it, but I need some way to distinguish the two different tie-off methods.

[rcwild]

However, somehow the tie-off came undone! :eek: Now the block was rigged just like it would be for rappelling.

Evan mentioned clipping a carabiner through the small hole of the figure eight and around the retrieval rope. I've been doing this and have had no problems.


I also noticed when loaded it appeared the rope might bind against the rapide making it difficult to release unless you pull the figure-8 away from the rapide.

I've been playing around with this system a lot lately, including with students at courses in Arizona and here. Only observed this problem a couple times with a heavy person on the line. I directed the operator to clip their tether into the carabiner dangling from the small hole on the figure eight. They only had to pull back slightly to free the rope.

[evanojenkins]

Paul,

I'm very surprised to hear this experience.

Can you clarify whether you left the carabiner dangling in the small hole as recommended? (see my note in post#88 of this threat). The only physical way for the block to untie is for the bight to pass back over the neck, which is made extemely secure by the dangling carabiner. If you did not use the dangling carabiner than I'd be less surprised.


Carabiner dangling in small hole: When the technique was first invented it was just done on the eight (without the dangling carabiner in the small hole) as per the picture on page 6 of this thread. This works fine, but there is a small risk of the dead rope working its way over the stem. Leaving a carabiner dangling from the small hole effectively removes this risk and adds no inconvenience. Assuming you are carrying the eight on a carabiner anyway (clipped into a gear loop) you just unclip the eight and carabiner from your harness as a single unit and install it on the rope as a single until (pulling the loop over the stem and biner). This gives complete peace of mind and I strongly recommend this as standard practice (should probably include in photos of system etc). Obviously if you’ve run out of biners for some reason than that’s a special exception!


On the binding issue, this has rarely be found to be a problem, but if it does bind it is easily released by clipping your cow's tail (safety tether) into the dangling carabiner and using your body weight to ease it away from the rapide:


The rope usually runs very smoothly as I let it through the eight (which is still sitting against the rapide link). In the extremely unlikely event that the rope is not running smoothly because it is pinching against the rock you can clip your cow’s tail into the dangling carabiner in the small hole and use your body weight to prise the eight away from the rock – in practice this is almost never necessary but worth remembering in case it happens.

Evan

[rcwild]

In Europe the Magic is marketed by Salewa and called the "Salewa Guide".

I plan to order a few of these from Europe. Anyone interested let me know soon and I'll add to my order for you.

[Canyonbug]

However, somehow the tie-off came undone! :eek: Now the block was rigged just like it would be for rappelling. Fortunately I noticed it very early and grabbed the pull side of the rope to stop my possible rapid descent! Since I was near the top, I was able climb back up and I replaced the block with a clove hitch on a carabineer. :) I have no idea how it came undone from the time I checked it, got on rope, grabbed the rope bag, and unclipped my safety. Until I consult with others and due more testing, I will not be using this method.

That could be quite frightening. I too have played with this technique and have taught it in our course last weekend. Of course the students like this method a lot more than the munter/mule. One issue I did observe is some of the students were not snugging up the rope against the Figure 8. They would put it around the Figure 8 in the proper configuration but leave the rope loose. As soon as they would start to pull the block against the rapid the loop would come out. I had to make sure that the loop and all of the rope was snugged up against the Figure 8. Also if it is not immediately weighted and left dangling the rope could work it self loose and come off. Some things to check on before you start your rappel.




I also noticed when loaded it appeared the rope might bind against the rapide making it difficult to release unless you pull the figure-8 away from the rapide. I did not try this with a heavy load to test my observation. However, others have not mentioned this problem, so I maybe it not a problem. When using the French method I have had no problems getting the rope to release under load.

I would agree with Rich in putting your tether through the small hole and pulling it away just a bit. On the other side I have had the munter bind against the rock so neither one is perfect. I do like the Figure 8 more though for ease of use and smoother lower.

[Paul Nelson]

Paul,

I'm very surprised to hear this experience.

Can you clarify whether you left the carabiner dangling in the small hole as recommended? (see my note in post#88 of this threat). The only physical way for the block to untie is for the bight to pass back over the neck, which is made extemely secure by the dangling carabiner. If you did not use the dangling carabiner than I'd be less surprised.



For others, I clipped a safety carabineer from the small hole to the anchor webbing to prevent the tie-off from coming undone. Being the last man down, I removed the carabineer clipped into the small hole of the figure-8. With the thin and flexible nature of the Imlay 8mm rope, I did not think the tie-off would pass back over the neck easily; in hindsight this was an incorrect assumption!

I like the compactness of Spanish method for the pull down, but I think the French method is easier to rig (no error in making the wrong twist), easier to release in an emergency, and is less prone to coming undone by itself. Until I get more comfortable with the Spanish method, I am using the French method as my standard contingency block.

[Paul Nelson]

That could be quite frightening.

I agree and that is why I am posting my experience so others can learn from my mistake. I think my sphincter is still sore! :D I bring the rope bag down with me, so it was easy to grab the pull side to stop my descent. The fact that it occurred very early into the descent and due my experience and calm under pressure that I was able resolve the problem before it escalated to a more life threatening event.


I too have played with this technique and have taught it in our course last weekend. Of course the students like this method a lot more than the munter/mule. One issue I did observe is some of the students were not snugging up the rope against the Figure 8. They would put it around the Figure 8 in the proper configuration but leave the rope loose. As soon as they would start to pull the block against the rapid the loop would come out. I had to make sure that the loop and all of the rope was snugged up against the Figure 8. Also if it is not immediately weighted and left dangling the rope could work it self loose and come off. Some things to check on before you start your rappel.

As standard practice, I always pull hard on any knot or rigging to make sure it is set properly and so it cannot come undone. In this case, it did just that. However, between when I checked the anchor and the 30-60 seconds it took to get on rope, grab the rope bag, and unclip my safety, something happened to cause the tie-off to eventually become undone. I also have a habit of loading and looking at the anchor before I unclip my safety to make sure everything looks ok, and I did not notice any problems. However, my failure to notice a problem could be due to my inexperience in using this method.

I would like to add, that the use of a carabineer though the small hole is very important for safety when using the Spanish method. If a flexible and small diameter 8 mm rope can come undone, then stiffer and thicker ropes are more prone to coming undone. LEARN from my experience!

Edited on May 5, 2007:
The reference to Spanish Method was my incorrect attempt to give the twist-tie off method a name to distinguish it from other methods using a contingency block. I now want to call it the 'Evan method' since he & Michelle are responsible for bringing it to the ACA website. See post 100 for more details.

[evanojenkins]

Paul,

Thanks for clarrifying these important details. This clearly re-iterates the recommendation that the carabiner is always left in the small hole. It is extremely hard for the bight to find its way over a dangling carabiner. That is why the French added it in 2004.

For total security the caribiner can be clipped into the pull strand and left there for the pull. I don't do that while I'm standing next to it "operating it" as it slows down the contingency sequence, but i do if I leave it alone and for the pull down.

I'm very glad that your quick reactions saved this from being an accident! I would have agreed with your assumtion that you would get away without using the carabiner with a thin flexible rope, so this is a valuable lesson and example - thanks for sharing it.

2 minor things:

This isn't the "Spanish method". That is different method again - one I've not used much as I'm a convert to this method.

I don't recommend clipping the carabiner on the small hole directly into the anchor chain/sling. If you really want to make that connection then use a quickdraw. I've seen the direct connection (to a chain) get badly wedged when weight was applied

Evan

[Paul Nelson]

Paul,
Thanks for clarrifying these important details.


Your Welcome



This isn't the "Spanish method". That is different method again - one I've not used much as I'm a convert to this method.


Let give this method a name. I know Michelle did not invent it, but she is the first one to discribe it on the ACA website, so unless someone has a better name, I propose the Michelle method. Maybe I called it Spanish because she metioned she saw it while she was in Spain?



I don't recommend clipping the carabiner on the small hole directly into the anchor chain/sling. If you really want to make that connection then use a quickdraw. I've seen the direct connection (to a chain) get badly wedged when weight was applied


I noticed this as a possible issue, and in this case there was no problem with it getting wedged. In other locations, I used a quickdraw.

[ratagonia]

I would like to add, that the use of a carabineer though the small hole is very important for safety when using the Spanish method. If a flexible and small diameter 8 mm rope can come undone, then stiffer and thicker ropes are more prone to coming undone. LEARN from my experience!

The Black Diamond Super 8 has a particularly small and smooth small end, and may not be the best choice for this technique. One thing about the Magic, the "small end" is quite large.

Tom

[catware11]

Maybe I called it Spanish because she metioned she saw it while she was in Spain?


Greece, actually. You should thus call it the 'Spartan' method. Lean & mean.


Definitely don't name it after me. Evan gets the credit for showing it to me (and to others, including Brian, at the time). I'll defer to him for picking a name. I'm glad to read that others are finding it so useful.

[rcwild]

... who learned it from Evan ... who learned it from Stefan ... who learned it from someone in the EFC ... who learned it from ...

The internet is awesome.

[koentje]

I would like to add, that the use of a carabineer though the small hole is very important for safety when using the Spanish method. If a flexible and small diameter 8 mm rope can come undone, then stiffer and thicker ropes are more prone to coming undone. LEARN from my experience!

:( nobody takes me seriously :(

Check out posts #23 and #49 on pages 9 & 7, it does happen and will happen again - Murphy.

Rich: please turn around the order of the pages in this forum or start a poll about it :D ... in our western world we start at page one and finish at the last one - here we are at the so-called end of a discussion on page one :confused:

[rcwild]

... in our western world we start at page one and finish at the last one - here we are at the so-called end of a discussion on page one :confused:


Koen, Koen, Koen,

Go to your User CP (control panel). Under "Edit Options", you can select:

Linear - Oldest First
Linear - Newest First
Threaded
Hybrid

You have the power.

[moab mark]

I do have photos I will be posting this evening to illustrate alternative contingency anchors.

Rich were these pics ever posted, I am having a hard time visualizing using the fig 8 instead of a munter/mule. Thanks
Mark

[rcwild]

Thank you for the reminder.

These two photos show a figure eight used as a contingency anchor. One photo illustrates the set-up in lowering mode. The other is locked off with a mule hitch around the rope and the spine of the carabiner. The loop should be secured to the webbing with a separate carabiner.

[moab mark]

Excellent thread Thanks Mark

[Paul Nelson]

I would like to add, that the use of a carabineer though the small hole is very important for safety when using the Spanish method. If a flexible and small diameter 8 mm rope can come undone, then stiffer and thicker ropes are more prone to coming undone. LEARN from my experience!

:( nobody takes me seriously :(

Check out posts #23 and #49 on pages 9 & 7, it does happen and will happen again - Murphy.




I read yours and Evan’s earlier posts about the possibility of the tie-off becoming undone which can be mitigated by a safety carabineer through the small hole, and I did take it seriously. When I rigged it, I used a safety carabineer that was clipped into the anchor. I view a safety carabineer as a must because of its potential of the tie-off to become loose and then undone with multiple people getting on and off rope. Just before I descended, I removed the carabineer as I thought the probability of the tie-off becoming undone was almost impossible considering the rope type and the tie-off was snug.

However, I underestimated the risk of how easily and quickly the tie-off could become undone even when using flexible 8mm rope which appeared to be set snugly. Based upon my experience, and referenced by others, the last person down should move the safety carabineer from the anchor to the standing part (pull side).

[moab mark]

When using this method (fig 8) as a cont anchor if you need to shorten the rope are you derigging the fig 8 or just slowing feeding the rope through the 8? Hope that made sense.
Mark

[rcwild]

When using this method (fig 8) as a cont anchor if you need to shorten the rope are you derigging the fig 8 or just slowing feeding the rope through the 8? Hope that made sense.
Mark

Personally ... It is so quick and easy to rig and de-rig, just take the eight off, pull up rope, put the eight back on.

Even though a munter is bi-directional, I always removed it to pull up rope unless I was only pulling up a couple feet of rope. And the eight block is much faster than de-rigging and re-rigging a munter/mule.

[moab mark]

what is the address for the french site?
Thanks Mark

[Seth]

Nothing about the Joker?

[mountain man]

here are some post about the joker

The Totem
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showpost.php?p=12809&postcount=18

Double Eight
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showpost.php?p=11734&postcount=48

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showpost.php?p=9906&postcount=34

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showpost.php?p=9909&postcount=37

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showpost.php?p=9910&postcount=38

it also use to be in the article sections for "contingency anchors" & "Alternatives to the Stone Knot" but those were taken down