canyoneering rope question

[ben.gowans]

I'm looking for a new rope. I found a low cost 3/8 in Spectra core rope. The sheath is Polypropylene. Is this an acceptable material for canyoneering? How might it hold up to abrasion and water. The specs show it is light and strong. I just want to know if it will last. Any help would be great.
Thanks

[mdd]

Ben,

Polypropylene melts at a pretty low temperature - sometimes the heat from the rappel device is hot enough - so unless you are planning on descending nothing but really wet canyons, I wouldn't recommend using it, especially in dry canyons (like the Colorado Plateau). I've also read that they don't do so well with abrasion...

Just curious, is it a rescue rope?


M

[ben.gowans]

Yes, it is a rescue rope. I found it on line at: www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=1835&deptid=1039

Sounds like I need to spend a little extra $ and get a Polyester or nylon sheath rope. Any sugestions for a light weight 200 footer?
Ben

[mtngoat59102]

Ben,

There is a ton of good rope information buried in various threads on this forum. If you have not taken the time to browse through them I highly recommend it.

Depending on your own experience and comfort level the lightest rope may not always be the best choice. What canyoneering ropes have you owned in the past? As people canyoneer more and gain experience they tend to learn lessons that sometimes trash their gear. Since your rope is literally your life it's good to think about your needs. I started out using the 9.2mm Canyon rope from Blue Water and loved the stuff (still do) since it was so tough. I have also used the 9mm maxwear from PMI and found that to be another resonably light but tough rope. Buying a bit thicker rope will sacrifice some in weight but increase the safety margin, weigh your needs and make a good choice. Personally, I'm glad my first rope choice was not an 8mm rope.

If you have decided that weight and bulk are your primary concerns and you are willing to sacrifice other benefits to save a pound or two people have been reporting good luck with the 8mm Canyon Pro from Blue Water and the 8mm rope Tom Jones is selling on canyoneeringusa. Don't forget your ACA discount at the Mountain Shop in Cedar City if you're a member.

[jwurst]

I also am in the market for a new rope and I have a specific question about rope diameter.

mtngoat59102, I read your comment about the PMI maxwear 9mm. I am looking at this one because I've been impressed with PMI ropes in my caving endevours. The trick is choosing the correct diameter. PMI's site list the ropes in mm. A lot of other sites publish diameters in inches: 5/16", 3/8", etc. Does anyone know what the real diameter of these ropes is?

5/16" ~= 8 mm. 3/8" ~= 9.5 mm. Which one of these is equivalent to the 9mm rope PMI has on their website and how big is it really?

Thanks for any insight you can give.

Jeff

[rcwild]

One rope manufacturer's 9mm might be 9.2, another's might be 8.9. Same is true when they list in fractions of an inch. So making an absolute comparison can be challenging.

Curious why diameter is so critical for you. Would it be adequate to simply decide upon a desired range -- say 9.0 to 9.5 -- then compare ropes within that range?

[jwurst]

Diameter isn't really that critical. I would like to go larger than 8mm for more durability and easier use and stay under 10mm for a lighter load. I've just seen these particular PMI ropes listed enough different ways that I'm not sure what I'm going to get anymore. Too bad there isn't a store in my area that carries any static rope besides Blue Water's 7/16".

[stevebrezovec]

I really like Sterling's 9mm. Tom's 9mm is supposed to be great for the price. Canyon 9mm is good too.
9mm seems best to me, especially if you take beginners or have a mixed ability. Just because you're a pro doesn't mean everyone who uses your rope is.

8mm and under seems best to me only for experienced fast & light junkies, ymmv.
S

[mtngoat59102]

I have used both the Blue Water 9.2mm Canyon and the PMI 9mm Max Wear. They are both great ropes and very tough. I think the BW canyon is a tad lighter regardless of what the specs say. The PMI is a gnat hair thinner, but not by much. I'm sure other good ropes are out there but I have the most experience with these.

This is all personal opinion, keep in mind. The PMI also seems to run through my rap device a bit faster. Toss a coin, I have been impressed by both of these ropes. I will most likely continue to use the BW rope as my secondary rope in place of my 8mm. YMMV Steve is right about one thing, I find my 9mm ropes a more versatile work horse than my 8mm. If I only owned 1 canyoneering rope I think I would have to default to my thicker 9 or 9.5mm ropes. (thankgoodness I get to own lots :D )

[glennjd3]

I've found the Blue Water Canyon Pro 9.2 mm a durable workhorse that doesn't ship a bunch of water when it gets drenched. I bought my ropes at mgear.com (no financial connection).

[dccampen]

I've found the Blue Water Canyon Pro 9.2 mm a durable workhorse that doesn't ship a bunch of water when it gets drenched.
The 9.2 mm Blue Water rope is called "Canyon" rope not "Canyon Pro". The "Canyon Pro" rope is 8 mm. There is a significant difference between the two. The 9.2 mm "Canyon" rope has a nylon core while the 8 mm "Canyon Pro" has a Spectra core.

[glennjd3]

The 9.2 mm Blue Water rope is called "Canyon" rope not "Canyon Pro". The "Canyon Pro" rope is 8 mm. There is a significant difference between the two. The 9.2 mm "Canyon" rope has a nylon core while the 8 mm "Canyon Pro" has a Spectra core.

Yeah, I know the difference. Sorry about the slip. I do prefer the 9.2 Canyon to the 8.0 Canyon Pro. However, my point is that neither of these ropes ship much water and that's the only way to go...."in the dark with your cold hands trembling."

[dccampen]

my point is that neither of these ropes ship much water and that's the only way to go
Yes, certainly a very desirable property. Another desirable property is stretch and this is something that Spectra core ropes such as "Canyon Pro" don't have.

[glennjd3]

Yes, certainly a very desirable property. Another desirable property is stretch and this is something that Spectra core ropes such as "Canyon Pro" don't have.

Point well taken. It's been great to hear what other people are using and how the various ropes hold up.

I have a related question about retiring ropes. What is the best system for replacement--regular rotation (3-5 years even if the casing still looks good) or based on rope condition. Obviously a rope has to be replaced if there is any damage to it, but I've heard a lot of different opionions about ropes with no visible signs of excessive wear. I know rope fibers break down over time. My own bias is to replace every three years (my life depends on it), but I've read some manufacturers who say that a rope properly stored and inspected can be used for up to ten years. What's the best balance between cost and safety?

[mtngoat59102]

To the best of my understanding there is no set formula for retiring your rope. It is important to understand that most fibers break down over time regardless of use. However, use speeds up the wear. I would expect a rope that is cared for and used moderately will last 3-5 years. I hear of guys who tend to replace there lead rope every year or more than once a year but they climb a lot.

I have seen people use some really old gear. Saw a guy using a harness that was about 15 years old last weekend. I am not comfortable with using a nylon product that old to hang my life from, but some do.

[dccampen]

I have used nylon/nylon 11.6 mm Bluewater static ropes that were over 10 years old. If the ropes have been properly cared for and routinely inspected I see no reason not to.

Dynamic ropes that have taken falls I have no knowledge about.

[ratagonia]

Dynamic lead climbing ropes require careful consideration, as they lose their dynamic properties (ie, their stretchiness) with both use and time. Edelrid once tested some 10 year old dynamic ropes they found in the back of their warehouse - and none of them would still pass the UIAA 3-fall standard, though still in their original plastic.

Static ropes, on the other hand, are very stable over time. Nylon and Polyester are stable fibers that do not change over short time periods like 10 years. Your periodic inspection of your canyoneering ropes should focus on the sheath fibers. Cuts in sheath fibers or holes in the sheath indicate that the rope is ready for the backyard slackline.

That said, any rope that you are no longer comfortable with should be retired. Not that expensive - peace of mind is a good thing.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Yes, certainly a very desirable property. Another desirable property is stretch and this is something that Spectra core ropes such as "Canyon Pro" don't have.

Do you mean "Stretch is a desirable quality that the Canyon Pro does not have";

or that "Lack of Stretch is a desirable quality that the Canyon Pro does have, in spades"?

Personally, I like to use very static ropes for canyoneering. Decreases the bounce factor that tends to cut ropes going across an edge. Scary!! Canyon Pro good.

Tom

[dccampen]

Do you mean "Stretch is a desirable quality that the Canyon Pro does not have";
Yes, that is what I meant.


Personally, I like to use very static ropes for canyoneering. Decreases the bounce factor that tends to cut ropes going across an edge. Scary!! Canyon Pro good.
There are other factors that you might want to consider:

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=338

[Paul Nelson]

Do you mean "Stretch is a desirable quality that the Canyon Pro does not have";

or that "Lack of Stretch is a desirable quality that the Canyon Pro does have, in spades"?

Personally, I like to use very static ropes for canyoneering. Decreases the bounce factor that tends to cut ropes going across an edge. Scary!! Canyon Pro good.

Tom


First, the following is based on observation and experience, and not on scientific tests.

I have found a very static rope does not always result in less rope wear across an edge. Factors such as the type of rock, sharpness of the edge, and the angle (or bend) of the rope to the edge are all determining factors for wear on a rope. Wear on rope that stretches will occur over a longer portion of the sheath, whereas a very static rope will result in concentrated wear at one spot on the rope. Also since less energy is absorbed, more energy is transferred at rub point, thus increasing the rate of wear.

I use 100% polyester 10 mm rope; which is very low stretch. At a practice session this past weekend, after 3 people descended, I noticed significant wear about half an inch long on the rope which came from a concrete on an edge. (Someone had cemented a bunch of rocks at the top of this waterfall.) I found this alarming as I have used this rope caving and have never seen such fast wear. I contribute the fast wear to the combination of newbies on rappel and the concrete edge. Once I moved the rope to another spot without concrete, wear was no longer a problem. A nylon rope, with its stretch, may have resulted less significant wear over a longer area.

I like the 100% polyester rope because it does not absorb water, keeps its strength when wet so I can use a smaller rope, and it can take a lot of wear. However, one must understand polyester’s weakness and plan for them, because it is not nylon.

Since a very low stretch rope does not absorb energy, then all the force is transmitted to the anchor, or in the case above the wear point, or your body. If your anchor is marginal, having some stretch is a good thing.

The most dangerous part of descent can be the top of a pitch. Slipping on slimy rock and falling three feet while trying to get over the edge can result in very high fall factors if there is only three feet of rope to absorb the fall.

Lastly, a VERY important point to consider is rope diameter and the impact of abrasion points. The Canyon Pro is 8 mm and care must be taken to avoid sharp edges, otherwise wear can occur very fast and the core will be compromised.

Each type of rope material has different strengths and weaknesses. One should have a good understanding of the strengths and weaknesses and select a rope that best suits your experience and application, and finally use it properly.

[mtngoat59102]

Lastly, a VERY important point to consider is rope diameter and the impact of abrasion points. The Canyon Pro is 8 mm and care must be taken to avoid sharp edges, otherwise wear can occur very fast and the core will be compromised.

Sheath construction is an important factor. I have found my Canyon Pro to be one of the toughest ropes around for abrasion resistance. With that said, using skinny cords like the Pro 8mm should involve a high attention to detail. The kind of attention we should use no matter what rope we carry.

[glennjd3]

Interesting discussion. A month ago, I was caving with a guy who had 600 ft. of 11mm "static" rope. We rapped to the bottom of a 230' shaft to enter a cave. On the way down, I noticed a lot of bounce in the rope, even when I took special pains to play the rope out smoothly. When I got to the bottom and came off the rope, it retracted about 4-5 feet. This "static" rope acted more like my lead rope. Going back up on it was a major pain because of all the bounce (the guys with the jumars (rope walkers) had less problems, but I was using a frog system). I'm using my own ropes next time.

I agree with the last posting, you really have to know what the rope is made of and check with other climbers about it's performance before you really know what you are getting. For caving, I like the bluewater 10mm static rope. When I'm caving, I use a canvas rope sheath (velcro closure) to protect against wear over the edge. It's also a good idea if you are running a group through a canyon--the last guy can clean the sheath on his/her way down.

For canyoneering, I have two sets of the 9.2 canyon rope. It is by far my favorite, because it is durable and doesn't absorb water.

James

[Paul Nelson]

Interesting discussion. A month ago, I was caving with a guy who had 600 ft. of 11mm "static" rope. We rapped to the bottom of a 230' shaft to enter a cave. On the way down, I noticed a lot of bounce in the rope, even when I took special pains to play the rope out smoothly. When I got to the bottom and came off the rope, it retracted about 4-5 feet. This "static" rope acted more like my lead rope. Going back up on it was a major pain because of all the bounce (the guys with the jumars (rope walkers) had less problems, but I was using a frog system). I'm using my own ropes next time.


A manufacturers nylon static rope has about 2-3 percent elongation at 300 lbs, so 4-5 feet would be normal. Their polyester is 1-1.5 percent. I perfer the polyester rope for caving has it has a lot less bounce when going back up. I did a 90 meter free drop in New Zealand on 9 mm nylon, going up was very bouncy.

I typically rig with deviations or rebelays to avoid rub points.

[dccampen]

Interesting discussion. A month ago, I was caving with a guy who had 600 ft. of 11mm "static" rope. We rapped to the bottom of a 230' shaft to enter a cave. On the way down, I noticed a lot of bounce in the rope, even when I took special pains to play the rope out smoothly. When I got to the bottom and came off the rope, it retracted about 4-5 feet. This "static" rope acted more like my lead rope.
As Paul said, 2% stretch is about what you will get from an 11.6 mm Bluewater, static nylon rope - so 4-5 ft. of stretch on a 230 ft drop is what you would expect. I think that a lead climbing rope would have given you _much_ more stretch, perhaps 40 ft. on a 230 ft. pit.


Going back up on it was a major pain because of all the bounce (the guys with the jumars (rope walkers) had less problems, but I was using a frog system). I'm using my own ropes next time.
I think you will find the same with your Bluewater, static nylon rope. Smoother frog technique will minimize the bounce. And, barring smoother technique, at least the bounce means less shock forces on your anchors.

[glennjd3]

As Paul said, 2% stretch is about what you will get from an 11.6 mm Bluewater, static nylon rope - so 4-5 ft. of stretch on a 230 ft drop is what you would expect. I think that a lead climbing rope would have given you _much_ more stretch, perhaps 40 ft. on a 230 ft. pit.


I think you will find the same with your Bluewater, static nylon rope. Smoother frog technique will minimize the bounce. And, barring smoother technique, at least the bounce means less shock forces on your anchors.

You are probably right. This is the first time I've done that long a run without a re-belay and I was really surprised at the amount of stretch in the rope. That reference to my lead rope was a bit of hyberbole (sp?). I've experienced first hand the benefit of having plenty of stretch in a dynamic rope. Still...it's one thing to read the manufacturer's specs and another to stand at the bottom of a shaft and see that much stretch. I'm with you, I'd rather have the stretch and preserve the integrity of my anchors.

I'm sure that my technique can be improved. I may invest in some Jumars. The rope walkers looked like they provide much smoother movement up the rope.

Thanks.

[Zarka]

Wondering if anyone here has tried the rope listed here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=7114601236&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

or any of his other ropes:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZshulz45

Even including the high shipping cost, it's a bargain, all nylon.

[skianddive]

If the rope is all nylon (polyamide) and it does not have a special coating to slow water absorption, it will suck up water like a sponge - up to 8% of its weight.

Acoording to a book I have, the water "swells the nylon molecule which reduces strength....and significantly decreases abrasion resistance."

You'd be better off with a rope that has a polyester sheath around a nylon core.

I would certainly ask the seller about the rope construction - maybe it isn't all nylon and maybe it is dry-treated.

But if you're looking for a real bargain on a good static kermantle rope (which you rappelled on yesterday), check out this deal at Sierra Trading Post (http://www.sierratradingpost.com/xq/asp/base_no.69115/dept_id.L2~2493/qx/product.htm).

[Paul Nelson]

Wondering if anyone here has tried the rope listed here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=7114601236&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

or any of his other ropes:
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZshulz45

Even including the high shipping cost, it's a bargain, all nylon.

First, if the cost is too low to be true, then think twice or thrice, especially when your life is on the line. I have seen some good climbing stuff from Russia, but have also seen some junk. This could be good stuff, but there is no mention of the company that makes it.

As Lee mentioned, for canyoning a polyester sheeth with hold up better when wet than nylon. The sierra trading site price is good. Might order me one.

[skianddive]

A slight warning about Sierra Trading Post (STP). You shouldn't be in a hurry to get the rope.

If you order it, it will show as on "backorder" with an expected availability date.

They will ship it - you'll just have to be patient.

[dccampen]

This could be good stuff, but there is no mention of the company that makes it.
Just buying any climbing gear, but especially rope, from ebay makes me shudder. Even if it is claimed to be name brand - who knows what sort of abuse it may have been subjected to. Even if the rope looks new, how do you know it hasn't been stored in someones swimming pool shed next to the bottles of hydrochloric acid.

But to buy no name, Eastern European made rope from ebay :eek: !!! If I wanted to play Russian Roulette I think I would prefer the more traditional version.