Pine Creek anchor

[Kirk]

Found this Monday, last rap. Three independent webbing strands and rapides, threaded with a 'biner. Comments?

[oldno7]

JACKPOT
Lot's of free stuff...............

[Kirk]

It may have been an attempt to avoid the three rapide tangle. The 'biner does seem to be slightly polished inside one end, but we didn't see 'em rap.

Adding more gear is clearly not always the best solution. Earlier in the canyon we added a rapide to the doubled rapides on the chain because we couldn't remove one. (Probably would have been fine to pull through a double, but we preferred a single, and the rapides couldn't be opened easily.) On this one, getting down to a single rapide was easy, cutting off the yard sale and leaving the nicely equalized black webbing and a single rapide.

[mountain man]

JACKPOT
Lot's of free stuff...............
QFE

[abarbosa]

I did Pine Creek two years ago, but I don't remember the last anchors. What is the number of them?

It looks like they are glue anchors and at least there are two, if this is the case; I think is better just passing the rope by two of them. Rappel in single or double and recover the rope.

I don’t see the reason to use the webbing, rapides and the biner. Of course I would like to be as lucky as Kirk.

Regards

[Kirk]

Rats! You mean I could have had one more rapide and a couple more feet of webbing?
:pullhair:

I was so dazzled by the array of gear that I didn't pay close attention to the bolts, but I'm pretty sure that while the lower bolt is nicely placed on the vertical face, the upper bolt is on a bit of a slope. Also, looking at the bolts perpendicular to the wall, they're placed so:

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... not the best for threading the rope, but great for equalized webbing. Plus, as the upper bolt is placed where the wall begins to slope back, a pull from the bottom is likely to scar the soft sandstone if threaded through both bolts. I think the webbing and rapide is a reasonable solution, as it:

1) brings the anchor over to ledge where people rig, making it more comfortable for less experienced people and reducing exposure

2) creates a safe place to clip into for safety, without having to add (first person down)/remove (last person down) a safety sling.

Rapping off the single lower glue-in is certainly reasonable - with the possible exception that the placement might also aggravate the scarring of the sandstone. Since we went off the webbing, I didn't give it close consideration. Lots of rope pulling scars in the near vicinity, anyway.

[oldno7]

Since this is one of, if not "the" most used canyons in Zion, it might be prudent some day to install chain. Some scaring would occur but it would be safer to the masses of un-knowing.
Definately not setup to run ropes through the 2 glu-ins on this particular anchor.

[abarbosa]

Thanks for the clarification regarding the position of the bolts :D

With this information sounds logic to use one webbing and one rapide. :)

Just one more comment: IF “the lower bolt is nicely placed on the vertical face” (as per Kirk information). Do you think that install just a webbing (that doesn’t permit extension) to connect the two bolts for redundancy is another choice? I’m thinking to use only the lower bolt to install your rappel system and pass the rope only through it.

Note: sorry if sometimes I use strange words in my posts, my Spanish is better than my English :(

[Kirk]

The bolts were glue-ins. I'd guess that backup webbing would not add much additional safety to protect against whatever might be strong enough to pull the bolts out.

I'd almost go with rapping off a single glue-in. If I was nervous enough to have to back up a glue-in, I'd probably be better off finding something else to trust.

[BurntToast]

Hey Kirk,


unless we hear from the canyoneer who left that set up we will never be
able to solve this riddle. Just doesn't make any sense. Biner sure looks
like the non-locking type ...while great for rock climbing there are not
many good uses in canyons

see you soon, somewhere out there . . .

Bernd




Found this Monday, last rap. Three independent webbing strands and rapides, threaded with a 'biner. Comments?

[chowjusky]

If Kirk left the gear there, it could be mine because he likes to leave my shiny stuff in and around the top of assorted raps. :p