Some questions from a rookie

[FredinUtah]

I hope this has not been answerd before, I did a lot of searching through the site and still have some questions.

I noticed on another thread, a technique refered to as a Munter-hitched ATC. Are there any limitations on this other than not threading the rope againts the gate? Does it cause undo stress on the biener or the rope?

1010
(I borrowed this picture from another topic on this sight)

What about a caribiener through the leg loop on the non brake side? It would seem to give more control of the amount of drag because you can wrap the rope around your hip with your brake hand in a normal braking position. For claritys sake, I have always seen & read that you put a beiner through the leg loop (right handed, right leg loop) then pull up instead of down.

I have also heard mention of using two biners underneath an ATC, is this as simple as adding a second locking carabiner to the rappel loop and passing the rope in the same normal direction as when setting up your harness to rappel? Does this really add much friction?
1012

Has anyone suggested using empty protien powder containers as a
'poor mans" keg?
1011

(Perspective is way off, this is approximately a gallon container)

I really appreciate all of the experience and advice on this board.

Thanks,
Fred

[nonot]

In my experience I've always had way too much friction with an ATC, so I prefer a figure 8. If you are not a tiny sized guy you may just want to find a nice practice cliff and rap a few times on your ATC (start short, work your way to higher rappels) to figure if you are even a candidate for needing even more friction.

[charlybldr]

Hi Fred,

And welcome to the ACA Forum.



I noticed on another thread, a technique referred to as a Munter-hitched ATC. Are there any limitations on this other than not threading the rope against the gate? Does it cause undo stress on the biener or the rope?

This technique provides a lot of additional friction. In my view, the biggest limitation is that it can be awkward to rig for some. It also does not allow adjustment of friction during the rappel.


What about a carabiner through the leg loop on the non brake side? It would seem to give more control of the amount of drag because you can wrap the rope around your hip with your brake hand in a normal braking position. For claritys sake, I have always seen & read that you put a beiner through the leg loop (right handed, right leg loop) then pull up instead of down.

You can look at placement of leg loop 'biners as adding friction incrementally. Leg loop 'biner on brake side adds x amount of friction. 'Biner opposite brake side adds x+ friction. Leg loop 'biner plus rope around your hip adds x++ friction.


I have also heard mention of using two biners underneath an ATC, is this as simple as adding a second locking carabiner to the rappel loop and passing the rope in the same normal direction as when setting up your harness to rappel? Does this really add much friction?

Yes and yes. This technique allows you to add friction at the beginning of a rappel but you will be unable to change this during the rappel.


Has anyone suggested using empty protien powder containers as a
'poor mans" keg?

Protien powder containers aren't designed to withstand a lot of jostling around. Personally, I would not care to risk my valuables (cell phone, wallet, camera etc.) by "cheaping out" with this solution. Go ahead and spend the bucks on a nice keg or dry bag. You'll be glad you did.

[Kirk]

Great questions, Fred.

1) I think the best friction systems allow you to add or subtract as needed on the fly. A Piranah can easily do this, or adding a friction Z (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/album.php?albumid=88&pictureid=747) works well, too (warning - I am the friction Z pimp!).

2) Yes, adding a biner does add noticeable friction. Try it. However, you may want to have both gates facing up from the ground towards you if locking - you can both have the gates accessible and lock them for safety. The opposing gate configuration is usually reserved for non-locking carabiners, when there's no mechanical method for securing rope behind the gates.

3) :2thumbs: Be careful though: the lid and sides can flex with the softer, thinner plastic, and sometimes can breack th eseal or even pop the lid off. If you're trying to go lean, use the GU2O electrolyte containers (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/album.php?albumid=91&pictureid=756) - they're small and sturdy - room for a couple apples, several bars, and a small bag of peanuts or two. I love 'em.

Whoops - guess Charly and I replied with similar replies - take whatever makes the most sense to you.

[rcwild]

I'll add a couple comments to Charly's ...

The system in your first photo works, but might be a little tough for wet disconnects (disconnecting while floating/treading when there is excess rope in the water). Not an issue when rope length is set correctly.

Second photos -- works, but not necessary to oppose gates when using locking carabiners. Can also create a problem for wet disconnects.

Ditto what Charly said about dry kegs (http://www.canyonsandcrags.com/servlet/the-Dry-Bags-%26-Kegs/Categories). The good ones have a quality gasket in the lid and are quite durable.

[rcwild]

1) I think the best friction systems allow you to add or subtract as needed on the fly. A Piranah can easily do this, or adding a friction Z (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/album.php?albumid=88&pictureid=747) works well, too (warning - I am the friction Z pimp!).

Kirk, what's going on in that second photo? 500 pound guy rappelling on 4mm cord?

[FredinUtah]

I am practicing ascending(sounds like I'm going to heaven), tie offs, knot passing(that sounds painful), etc... on a 6.5' high beam in my garage. So I am hanging in space, like a free Rap., there is not much friction with an 8mm rope and an ATC. So if I seem concerned with increasing friction, that's why. It is darned near impossible to hold myself up without adding something.

Thanks for your answer,
This board is a like a coorespondence course in canyoneering. I love it!
Fred

[rcwild]

Glad to hear you are getting value from it, Fred. We're here to serve.

[thafen]

Sounds like you need a basic course on the Totem, Fred. It has everything you need in a rappelling or ascending device!

[moab mark]

I am practicing ascending(sounds like I'm going to heaven), tie offs, knot passing(that sounds painful), etc... on a 6.5' high beam in my garage. So I am hanging in space, like a free Rap., there is not much friction with an 8mm rope and an ATC. So if I seem concerned with increasing friction, that's why. It is darned near impossible to hold myself up without adding something.

Thanks for your answer,
This board is a like a coorespondence course in canyoneering. I love it!
Fred


Hey Fred there is a guy in Utah Valley that can probably give you some suggestions on an 8mm rope and an ATC.:rofl:



In Kirk's 2nd picture with that many z's can you actually even move?

Fred, if you are practicing in your garage alone I would make sure you have a ladder or something you can step onto if you get hung up. Could be a long day.

One other thing, is that your ATC in the second picture. If it is and you are going to stay with a ATC. I would look into getting one of the ATC's with the jaws on one side. Maybe others with more ATC experience can chime in but seems the jaws really help to create friction.

Mark

[Kirk]

Kirk, what's going on in that second photo? 500 pound guy rappelling on 4mm cord?

Awww, dang, everybody's noticing my expanding waistline! And good eye - that's 3.5 accessory cord (aka. 9.2 DS) ....

I've been playing around with Z-friction (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2978), and have been mulling the the soft-lock method I came up with, and after chewing it over, think it's a little better to thread a shorter stack with a bight and tie off with an overhand. Pics added. (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/album.php?albumid=88)

Definitely interested in points for improvement. I think it's pretty decent and meets most of my criteria. Note: I'm usually in the mostly dry San Gabriels, and perhaps this isn't the best option for heavy flowing waterfalls - certainly NOT something to untie in a hydraulic. Better to set the rope length above the water and splashdown.

[pitufo74]

I did Vivian Creek yesterday and saw someone using that exact set up. It was nice to watch how he went from a total stop (with the many loops) to a smooth transition once the loops came undone. I liked it!

[rcwild]

Awww, dang, everybody's noticing my expanding waistline! And good eye - that's 3.5 accessory cord (aka. 9.2 DS) ....

Nah, Kirk. I was joking about the incredible amount of friction with all of those wraps. Assuming you were showing how to rig it for a 500 pound guy rappelling on 4mm cord.

[FredinUtah]

Fred, if you are practicing in your garage alone I would make sure you have a ladder or something you can step onto if you get hung up. Could be a long day.


I actually already thought about that and moved the ladder within reach. I would feel awfully silly when my wife got home and found me hanging around the garage like that.



One other thing, is that your ATC in the second picture. If it is and you are going to stay with a ATC. I would look into getting one of the ATC's with the jaws on one side. Maybe others with more ATC experience can chime in but seems the jaws really help to create friction.

I was going to buy that style of ATC and read about how the sand can actually polish out the groves over time. I figured it's better to learn the limitations of a device and how to compensate for them, than to have chrecteristics of the device change over time.

Thanks,
Fred

[dbaxter]

I actually already thought about that and moved the ladder within reach. I would feel awfully silly when my wife got home and found me hanging around the garage like that.



I was going to buy that style of ATC and read about how the sand can actually polish out the groves over time. I figured it's better to learn the limitations of a device and how to compensate for them, than to have chrecteristics of the device change over time.

Thanks,
Fred

I was a die-hard atc user as well. Then I trained with the totem (no I'm not trying to score points here, LOL). Now I wouldn't use anything else. It seems as if all gear will wear when it comes in contact with sand.

[Kirk]

In Kirk's 2nd picture with that many z's can you actually even move?

Nope! That's the intention (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2978) - to NOT move, but lock off in a situation when you want to have the ability to vary applied friction both before and after locking off.

If you can assess the drop and nail appropriate friction, this technique is unnecessary. If you either can't see what is going on below you, or are uncomfortable/unfamiliar with the drop or speed of the rope, this helps you adjust your speed mid-rappel when you don't own a Piranha.

[Kirk]

I did Vivian Creek yesterday and saw someone using that exact set up. It was nice to watch how he went from a total stop (with the many loops) to a smooth transition once the loops came undone. I liked it!

Who was running your group? Noel? Duffy?

Sorry we didn't stick around to chat!
:)

[rcwild]

I was a die-hard atc user as well. Then I trained with the totem (no I'm not trying to score points here, LOL). Now I wouldn't use anything else. It seems as if all gear will wear when it comes in contact with sand.

I wish I could rig the point system so people earned bonus points every time they used the word TOTEM.

[oldno7]

I've been playing around with Z-friction (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2978),

I think this is good to experiment and draw conclusions from those 'tests". Including such idea's on a beginner only forum I see as problamatic.

Not trying to bash at all Kirk, just saying this method might be better suited for more advanced canyoneers, who can understand fully the +/- of such methods.

[dbaxter]

I wish I could rig the point system so people earned bonus points every time they used the word TOTEM.
I'd go for getting points every time I use the word TOTEM! Because I really like my TOTEM, Rappelling and locking off are so much better when I use the TOTEM! :spank:(Oh wait, it hasn't started yet)

[erstanl]

Totem. That is all. :)

[Don]

I wish I could rig the point system so people earned bonus points every time they used the word TOTEM.


What if someone says something negative about the TOTEM?

[dbaxter]

What if someone says something negative about the TOTEM?
How can you say anything negative about the TOTEM? Points get taken away of course :bicycle:

[thafen]

What if someone says something negative about the TOTEM?
I thought the first commandment of the ACA is "Thou shall not worship false rappel devices", how could anyone say anthing negative about the TOTEM (the one true rappel device).:hail2thechief:

[Kirk]

I think this is good to experiment and draw conclusions from those 'tests". Including such idea's on a beginner only forum I see as problamatic.

Not trying to bash at all Kirk, just saying this method might be better suited for more advanced canyoneers, who can understand fully the +/- of such methods.

I don't feel bashed at all. Not certain how this technique is any more advanced than a thigh wrap or leg 'biner, though, other than the fact that it's not currently in common use by the community. The principles and skills are not much different than those involved with using the horns on a Piranha - it's just on your leg, not on your descender.

I cordially disagree that this technique is problematic for beginners. In my opinion, the ability to adjust friction on the fly to suit the user's comfort should be an essential core skill for safe rappelling. IMHO knowing how much friction is appropriate in a given situation without having a lot of practice or experience, and without being able to easily adjust it as you go, is a more advanced skill that takes longer to master and apply safely.

If I know that a beginner knows how to speed up when it's a shallow angle, slow down when it's vertical, and lock off as needed, and be able to do that as the rappel changes, I'm a LOT more comfortable with them.

[pitufo74]

Who was running your group? Noel? Duffy?

Sorry we didn't stick around to chat!
:)



This was the group leader
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa310/pitufogargamel/P6210335.jpg

It was a family fun day. And I understand about not sticking around. We purposefully did not get too close because of the loose rocks, We did not want the mountain to come down on you, just wanted to play it safe.
Fun day for all!

[pitufo74]

I don't feel bashed at all. Not certain how this technique is any more advanced than a thigh wrap or leg 'biner, though, other than the fact that it's not currently in common use by the community. The principles and skills are not much different than those involved with using the horns on a Piranha - it's just on your leg, not on your descender.

I cordially disagree that this technique is problematic for beginners. In my opinion, the ability to adjust friction on the fly to suit the user's comfort should be an essential core skill for safe rappelling. IMHO knowing how much friction is appropriate in a given situation without having a lot of practice or experience, and without being able to easily adjust it as you go, is a more advanced skill that takes longer to master and apply safely.

If I know that a beginner knows how to speed up when it's a shallow angle, slow down when it's vertical, and lock off as needed, and be able to do that as the rappel changes, I'm a LOT more comfortable with them.


Had that guy who fell "100ft" in Zion, known how to add friction on the go, he might not have fallen as he did, Then again, That guy might still have:titanic:

[Kirk]

This was the group leader
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa310/pitufogargamel/P6210335.jpg

It was a family fun day. And I understand about not sticking around. We purposefully did not get too close because of the loose rocks, We did not want the mountain to come down on you, just wanted to play it safe.
Fun day for all!

Thanks for the room - we appreciated it. A couple of those downclimbs did have a few sleeping rocks that woke up and ran away. I hear they'll occasionally bite canyoneers if they resent being woken from their nap.

:bicycle:

[pitufo74]

Unfortunately one of the sleeping rocks must have been in a pissy mood, cause on its way down it cut my rope:mad:
Lucky, nobody was on Rap. and its still at a very usable 160ft

[FredinUtah]

Wow! Did I have fun this evening. I found a top bolted boulder up LCC with a 25ft face. Nice and steep(as in almost vertical) and played with the techniques I was asking about here. Adding friction(doubling up the carabieners worked great), passing a knot, ascending and then change to rappel, lock offs, auto block back up, Purcell Prussic and more. Learned a lot about how you can foul yourself up. Books are good for explanation but ya gotta get out & play.

Anyyway, thanks to all who responded. I really appreciate it & this sighth Rocks!
Fred