Online Canyoneering Courses ??

[rcwild]

Working on the subscription service for the manual, I stumbled on something that could make it very easy for me to offer online courses. Thought of at least 3 ways it could be used:

1. As preliminary course work to be completed before coming to a hands-on course at an ACA training center.

2. As follow-up course work available to students after completing a hands-on course at an ACA training center. Basically ongoing refresher training available online.

3. As a stand-alone course for people who live in areas that make attendance at a hands-on course impractical. Could even appeal to students from other parts of the globe.

So ... curious about what you think of the ideas. And ... considering that a 3-day hands-on course sells for $400-$500, what value would you place on the same material covered online?

Thanks in advance for sharing your opinions.

[scubabryan]

Rich,
Would these online courses include multimedia (ie: demonstration videos and audio) or will it be strictly pictures and text? Seeing someone demonstrating the actual techniques and explaining material via video will probably play into how much people are willing to pay for an online course.

[rcwild]

Rich,
Would these online courses include multimedia (ie: demonstration videos and audio) ...

Yes

[amedina]

My 2 cents is I would find it more valuable as follow up after having taken a course b/c it would enable you to refresh on techniques you learned but haven't had a chance to practice in the real world. Good idea.

[degbert]

I think all 3 options would be terrific.

You might find less of a disparity of knowledge in your classes by having preliminary course work. That could make teaching easier and you could cover more in class.

I just took your technical class and would love have a resource like this to refer back to. I think I got it, but it would be nice to confirm it by reviewing materials.

As far as stand-alone classes go, I probably wouldn't be handing out certificates until students can demonstrate the skills they learn. Otherwise, I think it would be great.

Also, I'd like to see some kind of subscription service like the handbook in addition to any course-like option.

As for pricing, I'll comment on that later. I've got to run.

[kuper]

I think it would make a good refresher for those of us who do not get as much practical canyoneering as we would like.

[bigjonsp]

I think that the option of having internet courses as a prep or refresher to a physical course would be a great value add for your students. Allowing you to ensure a base level of knowledge in your class so that you can cover more material, or spend more time practicing techniques. The refresher part would be very valuable to newer canyoneers, like myself, and could be included with a physical course for a limited time (6-12 months?), and to everyone else it could be offered on a subscription basis.

I personally think that if you offered an on-line version of your technical course that was perceived as having the same value (20+ hours of instruction), which may be the trickiest part of all, that it could be offered at a some what discounted price ($250 - 300?). (Quick thought: there are all kinds of options to add value to the online course as well; lifetime subscription to online materials, "beginer's" gear, etc.)

Just a few thoughts hope they were clear, and possibly helpful

[canyuneer]

I remember when I took the basic and tech course, I had a small notebook and jotted down everything I could. I think that having a written overview of what is taught in a course is great. A general outline with space to jot down things that stand out to an individual is what I prefer. Everyone is different in personal preferences. After I took the course I went to the ACA web site and down loaded a copy of the various levels of testing just to use as a personal refresher. Adding that to my notes helped in driving the concepts home.
I think it would be tough without hands on but if individuals are somewhat familiar with rope skills, knots, gear, etc., an online version could be doable.
Generally I like the ideas expressed in your post.

[rcwild]

This is a sample of the pages in the subscription version.

[abarbosa]

Many thanks Rich,

This is something that is going to improve the learning process. I agree that if we, as students, learn the theory first will be easier to learn at the 3 day hands-on.

Another value that I see here is that all the students, will be at least at the same theory level and the time in the ACA training centers will be of quality. This could help instructors to reduce “out of place” discussions.

[kelleyp]

Hello Rich,
Have you ever thought about a campanion DVD to go with each course? It could be sold at the courses perhaps?

[rcwild]

Not quite ready to go live yet, but getting closer. Check it out at:

http://canyoneering.us/subscribe/

[Parker]

I love the idea of pre and post excrcizes. Having it as the class itself I'm OK with but not willing to spend 250$ as previously mentioned.
Sounds great though!

[rcwild]

I love the idea of pre and post excrcizes. Having it as the class itself I'm OK with but not willing to spend 250$ as previously mentioned.
Sounds great though!

Thanks, Parker. I have my own serious reservations about people learning from just an online course, book, etc. Important to get some hands-on training or mentoring. Working on some ideas to create more opportunities for ACA training centers. Maybe take the course online, then have practice sessions for hands-on time with an instructor to serve as your coach.

[woadams123]

I didn't see the silver subscription feature available yet so I'm guessing it isn't quite ready but I really like the idea of getting the subscription 'feed'. The bowling schtick was unusual and a cool twist (canyoneering and bowling both happen in a cave and require...
:fishing:
good equipment).

[Ski Utah]

Rich,

This happens to be my line of work. Online courses are great tools and very effective, if done properly. When it comes to academics, CBT's have been proven to be more effective then instructor led courses (ILT's). The great thing about them is that with technology today, you have text, audio, and video that can be included in the CBT.

My professional opinion is that a CBT before the course is the most valuable as long as the learning is reinforced during the hand-on course (i.e. field lab).

There is a lot to consider and would be happy to assist you with your decision making.

[rcwild]

I didn't see the silver subscription feature available yet so I'm guessing it isn't quite ready but I really like the idea of getting the subscription 'feed'. The bowling schtick was unusual and a cool twist (canyoneering and bowling both happen in a cave and require...
:fishing:
good equipment).

I have my material ready, but waiting for the index tabs to arrive. They are being printed in Pittsburgh on the 17th. I expect to go live the moment they arrive.

Glad you like the schtick.

[rcwild]

My professional opinion is that a CBT before the course is the most valuable as long as the learning is reinforced during the hand-on course (i.e. field lab).

I'm sure you are right. David, Amilcar and others made some very good points in their posts. We have students with a wide range of backgrounds. Making the material available in advance may help level the playing field. Something as simple as asking students to practice a few knots in advance has helped a lot in the past.


There is a lot to consider and would be happy to assist you with your decision making.

Thanks, Darren. I just might take you up on that. Maybe work out a barter deal?

Crazy how things have evolved over just a few days. The only thing I set out to do was stick some files in a password-protected directory. Bill and David shared a couple ideas that led to other ideas that led to a search for WordPress plugins.

The program I found for managing memberships on the WordPress blog is very simple and very amazing. It will allow me to feed out information over a period of time rather than dump it out all at once. The program will also allow me to protect any section of the site or any piece of a section. I can even protect the text after a more tag in posts.

The more I learn about the program's capabilities, the more ideas I come up with for delivering content.

[Kat]

Rich,

when I took your basic climbing class in Phx, I was really the only one in the group who had never been climbing. My fellow students all had some sort of climbing experience so I felt very slow with my learning compared to them, plus, I could never finish tying a knot because someone, bless their heart, would take it from me, show me how it's done and then say, 'here'. That didn't help me (but we didn‘t have 7 hours to watch me tie one knot). If there had been an online course including a step by step knot tying video to play and replay prior to taking the hands-on class, I might have been one step ahead. I would at least have had an idea of what a friggin prusik was. ;)
And, I think it’s a smashing idea to take an online course from the same instructor/group who’s giving the hands-on class.

Kat

[dancrev]

I think an online course is a great idea, especially as a periodic refresher after taking the regular technical courses.

[Spidey]

I think it's a great idea as well. For pre course work or post course work. Thanks rich.

[Ski Utah]

Rich,

I'd be happy to work something out.

Darren

[scooter]

I really like this idea, especially as a refresher for someone who has attended a course but doesn't get out as often as they would like.

[rcwild]

Making some adjustments to the website (http://www.canyoneering.us) format as I learn more about how the membership program works.

Plan right now is to provide content on the site in two ways:

1. Subscribers to the book will have access to an ongoing flow of PDFs.

2. Online students will have access to lessons that consist of both PDFs and videos.

ACA training centers already pay a per-student curriculum fee. Access to the online lessons will be made available to their students for use before and after hands-on courses.

[rcwild]

Now optimized for viewing on your mobile device so you can take your online lessons with you when you practice skills and techniques. View www.canyoneering.us on your iPhone, iPod Touch, BlackBerry or Android.

I'm feeling kinda techno geeky right now.

[woadams123]

Checked it out on the iphone. Very fast to load and convenient form factor:2thumbs:. The mobile mode is nice, especially that I can switch it off directly on the page to view all the content. The video demo was pretty cool. That will probably be my preferred way to view it on the ipad when online (mobile first, then expand when interested).

I like the wordpress functionality, however I think it requires you to be online. It would be great to have an iphone app or secure pdf because ATT coverage has not been great for me in Zions and non-existent at remote campsites. I am relatively new to canyoneering so I typically take my own notes and review them the night before a rondy or doing a bunch of canyons. Would anyone else like the content to be available offline?

[rcwild]

Thanks for the input, Bill.

I'm having some problems with video. I can't use YouTube for hosting because it will be difficult to protect it for members only. I ain't gonna give it away. Found a few slick Flash movie players that work well with content stored on Amazon S3, but discovered the FLV movies won't play on my iPhone. Portability is a cool feature.

So I'm now searching for a player that I can configure easily on WordPress that will run .mpeg.

[kelleyp]

Now optimized for viewing on your mobile device so you can take your online lessons with you when you practice skills and techniques. View www.canyoneering.us (http://www.canyoneering.us) on your iPhone, iPod Touch, BlackBerry or Android.

I'm feeling kinda techno geeky right now.
Hey Rich,
I was thinking we could have a Rich C-3PO to guide us through the canyons. No more need for all those pesky hand held devices and those eye sore antenna contraptions that keep growing on the mountain tops of our brave new world. Sorry, but I was just feeling a little Edward Abbeyish/Amish. Love Ya'll ! kelleyp

[woadams123]

Thanks for the input, Bill.

I'm having some problems with video. I can't use YouTube for hosting because it will be difficult to protect it for members only. I ain't gonna give it away. Found a few slick Flash movie players that work well with content stored on Amazon S3, but discovered the FLV movies won't play on my iPhone. Portability is a cool feature.

So I'm now searching for a player that I can configure easily on WordPress that will run .mpeg.

You might embed H.264 encoded video in the protected wordpress pages (most players will support it). That still would not prevent someone from copying the video as you point out. It might be worth exploring H.264 embedded video in a secure pdf. On the iphone/ifad the pdf is rendered by apple's quartz technology, it may not support the video?? http://www.goodiware.com/goodreader.html (supports audio and video on the pdf files).

[degbert]

Even if the embedded video in a pdf works, I would probably shy away from using it to deliver video to the iPhone. Stick with the Apple approved methods of embedding it in a web page or building an app for that.

[woadams123]

Even if the embedded video in a pdf works, I would probably shy away from using it to deliver video to the iPhone. Stick with the Apple approved methods of embedding it in a web page or building an app for that.

I can't think of a reason not to try and find Portability ("is a cool feature"). What has been your experience? IMHO, developing specific apps for the iphone is not very easy for someone that does not know objective C, even with titanium. When droid marketshare surpasses iphone in 2012 (Gartner prediction), you will support both out of the box. Also by sticking to an open standard, all users across all platforms (desktop+mobile) will have a consistent experience.

[rcwild]

I found a player that allows me to enter one URL for the web video and another for iPhone/iPod video. I saved one optimized version of a test video for each version. It seems to be working fine. :2thumbs:

[degbert]

I'd like to think I'm a huge advocate for open standards, and having a portable document that can be viewed across all devices would be ideal. Problem is, companies support those standards differently (I'm not completely sure embedded video is part of the standard pdf specification, I think Adobe added it as an extended feature).

For fun, I threw together a quick PDF with an interactive button on the first page that takes you to an embedded video on the second page. Here's the link:

http://tinyurl.com/stem1

You'll need Adobe Reader 9 or above to watch it. Using GoodReader Lite on my iPhone, it opens the document but the interactive button and embedded video are missing. If you have the paid version of GoodReader it would be interesting to see if it works.

Developing iPhone Apps can be a pain in XCode. You kind of have to learn the Apple way. Chasing down memory leaks makes me want to drink battery acid. I think the Apple/Adobe debacle is a tragedy.

Returning back to the handbook, it would be nice to offer each section/chapter individually for print out, and perhaps an updated PDF book with bookmarks for easy navigation. Having instant access to text and photos while training could be very helpful



I can't think of a reason not to try and find Portability ("is a cool feature"). What has been your experience? IMHO, developing specific apps for the iphone is not very easy for someone that does not know objective C, even with titanium. When droid marketshare surpasses iphone in 2012 (Gartner prediction), you will support both out of the box. Also by sticking to an open standard, all users across all platforms (desktop+mobile) will have a consistent experience.