New Rappelling Method?

[skianddive]

Nine of us did a local canyon this weekend, and while we were waiting at one of waterfalls, a group of 3 other canyoners caught up with us and we let them "play through".

The canyons sure are getting crowded! :)

We talked with a couple of the guys and found out that they had recently been trained in March by a local outfit who shall be known as ATS.

One thing that struck us was how all 3 of them rappelled - using 2 hands on the rope below the rappel device (as seen in the picture below) and actually holding the rope rather than placing one hand on a hip with the rope.

Because I have seen one or two other ATS-taught canyoneers using this same technique, I am now assuming that this must be the method they teach in their beginning class.

However, this is not how we were taught in our ACA Techincal Canyoneering class.

I know there are different techniques in all sports for accomplishing the same thing and some are better than others, so I was wondering if anyone knows what the pros and cons are to using this method?

http://www.alpinets.com/gallery/alpine8.jpg

[rcwild]

Not really a new technique, Lee.

When teaching beginners there is major concern about them keeping their brake hand on the rope. Some instructors teach the 2-handed method figuring sooner or later they are going to screw up and take their hand off the rope. If both hands are on, it doesn't matter if one comes off.

[mtngoat59102]

The technique I like best for easy starts looks similar to your picture and is how I most frequently go. It's better if the rap device is extended slightly offering a much more free range of movement and very comfortable with the rope actually going between your feet. (lots of personal preference here) However, this style is not good for awkward starts. Rap device close to harness and hand on hip or behind butt is best for me while climbing over an awkward anchor point to tension the rope. Of course, you're still saftied to the anchor while moving into position, right?

As with most things, as people try different things they find what they like.

[skianddive]

OK, let's call it a "different rappelling method."

You've listed a "pro" for this method - that is, that some instructors feel more comfortable having their students use it.

I guess from the rappeller's viewpoint, another "pro" would be that you always have a backup on the rope should one hand "accidentally" come off.

Are there any "cons" to this method?

[mtngoat59102]

If this rap had a free hanging section. Look at your photo. Sometimes if I'm wearing my pack on a free hanging section of a drop I feel it pulling back on me. The best option is to hang your pack on your harness where applicable.

However, the person in your photo can help hold themselves up-right by using their left forearm and pulling against their weighted belay loop. If you're fighting a heavy bag on your back this can really help, plus keeping both hands on the rope.

The only con I know is awkward starts .... perhaps the guru knows something I don't.

[jmart]

As a beginner, the rappelling method in that photo came very natural to me. Also, when I am rappelling on a stiff and dirty rope, I can pick up the rope with my right hand and let it slide through my left hand, thereby preventing that ugly jerkiness on long free rappels.

I often see people "grab" the rope above the belay device with their left hand. That spooks me. Speaking only for myself: I have always feared that if something goes wrong, the tendency might be to instinctively grab very tightly with that hand.

Next time you go canyoneering take note of how many people place their left hand above the belay device. Then pay special attention to the muscles in those forearms. If the muscles are tense, it probably means that they are using those muscles (whether they are conscious about it or not) . Just something to consider, I guess.

Jason

[rcwild]

I often see people "grab" the rope above the belay device with their left hand. That spooks me. Speaking only for myself: I have always feared that if something goes wrong, the tendency might be to instinctively grab very tightly with that hand.

No reason to be spooked merely by the fact that people hold the rope above the rappel device with their non-brake hand. Many very experienced rappellers do it. I'm only spooked by the prospect of someone letting go with their brake hand. Beginners who hold on tight with their non-brake hand are more prone to do so. I look for white knuckles instead of tense forearms.

Nothing wrong with beginners learning to use two hands, but sooner or later they need to learn to rappel comfortably with one hand -- preferably with either hand.

[getsmart24]

Lee,

I don't know if you noticed that I was using that method also on some of the rappels on Sunday. I started using that option so I could use the shunt under the rappel device as a belay when I'm the first one going down. I like it. It gives you a lot of options because you can have the rope on either side of you and you can release either hand as needed. Try it out next time we're in a canyon.

[Darren Jeffrey]

RE: The Pros and Cons for extending your rappel device as ATS teaches
Pros: It enables two hands to be on the brake line, it allows more than double (if the extension is adjusted properly to the users height) the amount of brake line to be in the visual field which is incredibly handy in a heavy flow, it allows the rappel device to be out of the water and in sight when disconnecting while in a deep pool, which helps prevent dropping your device (and helps keep your hands a little warmer since we don't use gloves while rappelling). By girth hitching into your harness at the strong point bypassing the belay loop, you leave the belay loop free for your auto block that installs on the brake line side of your device which is in the center of your harness, and not on a leg loop, creating more freedom in switching sides with your brake line, and a more comfortable system if you need to hang on your auto block mid way.

Cons: It adds another link to the chain of elements that can fail or be installed improperly. Also, the extended device will be at a heigth enough where someone with long hair could have a problem and end up with a new hair do by the end of the day... pony tails included... Getting into awkward rap stances is also a bit trickier as the device will tend to get caught up on the lip of free or over hanging starts, to solve this you can clip your rappel biner down into your belay loop for that particular rap while leaving it still connected to your extension.

Safety points: Only use a Metolius PAS, or a hand tied extension of a seven mm cord or thicker, webbing can come untied much easier than cordage. (NEVER A STANDARD DASIY CHAIN) leave a remaining tail long enough to use for clipping into your anchor before you begin to install the rappel line to your rappel device, allowing you to be safely clipped in at the edge of the stance. Adjust the extension so the DEVICE is no higher than your arm pits. When the Metolius PAS is properly installed we use the smallest loop to attach our rappel device. This system will transfer your backpack weight just the same as if you were rappelling off of the belay loop. I recommend the Metolius "Safety Tech Harness" with the "adjustable rise" to off set you average pack weight.
I hope this helps…



Darren Jeffrey
ATS

[rcwild]

Whoah! Some very important clarifications are in order ...


... the amount of brake line to be in the visual field which is incredibly handy in a heavy flow, it allows the rappel device to be out of the water and in sight when disconnecting while in a deep pool ... you leave the belay loop free for your auto block ...

I'm surprised you are encouraging people to rig toss-n-go and do wet disconnects. Much more efficient to set the rope length correctly. Toss-n-go is dangerous in class C canyons. It is a standard safety practice to use releasable systems (i.e. contingency anchors) when rappelling in waterfalls, or landing in strong current or hydraulics.

I hope you are not encouraging people to use auto-blocks in heavy water flow. Perhaps it was just unclear because your comments about heavy flow and using an auto block are in the same paragraph.

DO NOT use an autoblock in heavy water flow! This practice is very unsafe.

[Darren Jeffrey]

Hello Rich, woooah hope your staying cool out there in the ol desert. Thanks for your reply, we are not promoting what is being referred to as "toss and go" in class "C" canyons. The extension method with an auto block below the rap device works well on any rope system. The auto block slides off of the rope well before the rap device gets to the tail end. Also it is encouraged for folks to only use an auto block if the circumstances really dictate in a class "C" cyn... I.E. 280' of rappelling in the water course under a heavy flow before the swim etc... In all cases the auto block can be released or loosened from the line a few feet off the pool with a single hand. (A key lock carabiner works best for this app.) Then it's a simple matter of rappelling off the end of your "measured line" into a nice long swim etc... The Petzel Pirana is a great tool for security, as additional friction can be added as you go if the auto block is not appropriate... we teach people to think for themselves here...

[rcwild]

... we are not promoting what is being referred to as "toss and go" in class "C" cyn’s. The extension method with an auto block below the rap device works well on any rope system. The auto block slides off of the rope well before the rap device gets to the tail end. Also it is encouraged for folks to only use an auto block if the circumstances really dictate in a class "C" cyn... I.E. 280' of rappelling in the water course under a heavy flow before the swim etc ...

I understand that the extension setup works on any rope system. The extension has other advantages in serious class C. Fairly common for experienced canyoneers to connect rap device to harness with short sling that can be cut free if the rappeller can't get free in a serious hydraulic.

But that's missing the point. My concern is about using an auto block in class C canyons. The heavier the flow, the LESS SAFE IT IS TO USE! You claim to be teaching people to think for themselves, but you are suggesting circumstances when you think it is appropriate and you are wrong.

I realize you're pretty new to this and haven't experienced or witnessed the problems this can cause. I've seen beginners nearly drown because they tried to fight the heavy flow of a waterfall while rappelling. The correct thing to do is maintain control, but keep moving. Fight the water and it will win every time. Even worse to encourage using an autoblock when water flow is heavy. People have drowned and died of hypothermia while stuck in a waterfall.

Problem becomes even more threatening at the base of the waterfall if there is a serious hydraulic. People need to rig to allow for the simplest possible disconnect. They should not add additional things that must be disconnected while they are struggling with current.

I think you are the only person in the world teaching this. Please stop. It is not safe.

[Darren Jeffrey]

Rich, AKA guru...
Thank you for your compliment regarding the style of leadership that ATS displays. I want to thank you for your guidance. You have been a perfect example of exactly what I/ ATS should never look like persoanlly and professioanlly. Your last paragraph is proof of what I am talking about. Perhaps you should start another organization that deal's with people that don't see things your way.

I recieve e-mail's and voice mails on a regular basis from folks that simply cannot believe your undisciplined approach to what you do! You have a great thing going but it should be taken from your hands and left in the minds of a competent B.O.D. Your need to police canyoneering in the USA has made you very transparant. It is proven to myself and to many others that your entire identity is consumed by what you do. Regardless of your experince in europe or where ever, you have missed out on the most important fact in teaching... remaining teachable. With so much experince you should be over such a need to have an answer for everything... Resentments have injured more people in the outdoors than an auto block ever could. Thanks again...

[rcwild]

Darren, I'm really surprised you want to push this so hard in public. After seeing your slide show in Las Vegas, I brought several serious safety infractions to your attention quietly in a private email. You could have received my input constructively, but instead you took it with resentment and refused to even consider making changes. Talk about unteachable?

Now you've come on the ACA's forums with the same type of unsafe advice and you're upset that I called you on it. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and provided you with an opportunity to clarify:


... I hope you are not encouraging people to use auto-blocks in heavy water flow. Perhaps it was just unclear because your comments about heavy flow and using an auto block are in the same paragraph.

You clarified your position with an example:


Also it is encouraged for folks to only use an auto block if the circumstances really dictate in a class "C" cyn... I.E. 280' of rappelling in the water course under a heavy flow before the swim etc ...

"Heavy flow" is subjective, but think about the math. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. How many gallons will hit you? That water will gain quite a bit of momentum as it falls 280 feet. It will hit you with an incredible amount of force. Many people are flipped upside down and have their feet knocked out from under them. It is easier to right yourself when you are able to move. People have drowned and died of hypothermia because they were stuck on the rope in a waterfall.

At the base of most waterfalls, there is a hydraulic feature -- a recirculating current. Water against the wall plunges to the bottom, flows downstream for a short distance, comes up and rolls back toward the waterfall. Heavy flow will make this recirculating current extremely difficult to escape. People have drowned because they were stuck on the rope and couldn't deal with the recirculating current.

Adding an auto-block in these situations increases the likelihood that someone will become stuck on the rope and drown or suffer hypothermia. It is unsafe.

This is not simply an issue over our differing opinions. This specific question came up a few years ago. I contacted instructors from associations all over the world and asked for their opinions. Every one of them agreed that it is not safe and alternate systems should be used instead. Don't take pride in the fact that you are the only person teaching this. There are reasons that no one else does.

I admit to being an old dog and it might appear to some that I am too cocky to learn any new tricks. Not true. I still travel to share ideas and information with other associations, instructors and guides. I still get together from time to time with very competent canyoneers to practice and learn. There is nothing wrong with innovation. It should be encouraged. But innovation should be tempered with experience. As I've gone through my own learning processes, I've had the benefit of associating with many very experienced, skilled professionals from the AMGA, Swift Water Rescue, technical rope rescue, the CEC, the EFC, and others.

Darren, you have the opportunity to shortcut the process simply by opening your mind to advice from others. Start from a baseline using what others before you already learned, then add your own innovations to that baseline.

[ratagonia]

RE: The Pros and Cons for extending your rappel device as ATS teaches
Cons: It adds another link to the chain of elements that can fail or be installed improperly. Also, the extended device will be at a height enough where someone with long hair could have a problem and end up with a new hair do by the end of the day... pony tails included... Getting into awkward rap stances is also a bit trickier as the device will tend to get caught up on the lip of free or over hanging starts, to solve this you can clip your rappel biner down into your belay loop for that particular rap while leaving it still connected to your extension.

We're talking here about extending the rappel device above the belay loop 6-12" using a sling of some sort.

There's more problems than that. Yes, big problem with stuff being sucked into the rappel device. Since the rappel device is in front of the rappellers chin-to-face, even those with long bangs or what would normally be considered short hair for a girl can suck some hair in. Shirts can get sucked in too.

Having the rappel device flopping around in front can create other problems. When it is steaming hot, it can hit your face. If going over an edge, it can get stuck above you.

In my visit to the San Gabriels, I was amazed at how many people were using regular Figure of 8s. I don't like them because of the small ring of the 8 can catch on the gate and break it off (rappeller falls to their death) which while rare, is something that needs to be attended to by Figure 8 users. By extending the 8 above, you increase the flop and increase the opportunities for the old break-the-gate trick.

Tom

[ratagonia]

RE: The Pros and Cons for extending your rappel device as ATS teaches
Safety points: Only use a Metolius PAS, or a hand tied extension of a seven mm cord or thicker, webbing can come untied much easier than cordage. (NEVER A STANDARD DASIY CHAIN) leave a remaining tail long enough to use for clipping into your anchor before you begin to install the rappel line to your rappel device, allowing you to be safely clipped in at the edge of the stance. Adjust the extension so the DEVICE is no higher than your arm pits. When the Metolius PAS is properly installed we use the smallest loop to attach our rappel device.

This system will transfer your backpack weight just the same as if you were rappelling off of the belay loop. I recommend the Metolius "Safety Tech Harness" with the "adjustable rise" to off set you average pack weight.
I hope this helps…

I must be miss-understanding this. Adjusting your harness to move the waistbelt up a bit will not offset the weight of a medium-weight pack high on one's back. The only way to offset the weight is to get it below the center of gravity, by hanging it from the belay loop (via a Spelegyca or sling) or, in class C canyons, from a short sling on the side of the harness.

When the pack is empty, it is of course just fine to carry it on the back.

Tom

[ratagonia]

RE: The Pros and Cons for extending your rappel device as ATS teaches

Safety points: Only use a Metolius PAS, or a hand tied extension of a seven mm cord or thicker, webbing can come untied much easier than cordage.

(NEVER A STANDARD DAISY CHAIN) leave a remaining tail long enough to use for clipping into your anchor before you begin to install the rappel line to your rappel device, allowing you to be safely clipped in at the edge of the stance.

Hmmm. When I tie webbing, it stays tied exactly like I want it to.

An interesting take, however, I think maybe teaching people to tie webbing so it stays tied might be a better way to do it. I've always found that large cord (>6mm) is more difficult to tie securely than webbing, and leaves a huge knot. Whereas slings tied with a water knot, with tails at least 2", and set with body weight are rather unlikely to come untied.

The bartacked slings are even less likely to come untied.

It seems like having the clip-in (safety sling) seperate from the rappel point extension (if used) makes the system simpler and more flexible. I also use my clip in sling (Spelegyca) to clip my pack, thus hanging it below me. Makes for a nice sequence, too: 1. clip to anchor, 2. install rappel device, 3. unclip from anchor and clip to pack, 4. rappel.

Tom

[mtngoat59102]

There's more problems than that. Yes, big problem with stuff being sucked into the rappel device. Since the rappel device is in front of the rappellers chin-to-face, even those with long bangs or what would normally be considered short hair for a girl can suck some hair in. Shirts can get sucked in too.

Having the rappel device flopping around in front can create other problems. When it is steaming hot, it can hit your face. If going over an edge, it can get stuck above you.

In my visit to the San Gabriels, I was amazed at how many people were using regular Figure of 8s. I don't like them because of the small ring of the 8 can catch on the gate and break it off (rappeller falls to their death) which while rare, is something that needs to be attended to by Figure 8 users. By extending the 8 above, you increase the flop and increase the opportunities for the old break-the-gate trick.

Tom

After doing a lot of descents with my device extended and not extended I do not see extending your rap device as a bad thing but only another tool. As long as you are aware of it's advantages and dis-advantages it's a usful method for me. However, it's important to be able to judge where the technique is not appropriate. Awkward starts is the biggest concern where I would not extend my device. Drops with abrupt and hard to manage undercuts is another. FWIW, I have had more close calls with getting shirts, etc in my rap device while attached to my belay loop than extended. YMMV (I have short hair)

A long drop with an easy on rappel start, like the last rap in Heaps is a circumstance where I love to extend my device. It makes everything so much more enjoyable for me, and easy to manage. Of course, this is entirely personal taste. No technique is good w/out proper practice/training and appropriate application.

[mtngoat59102]

It seems like having the clip-in (safety sling) seperate from the rappel point extension (if used) makes the system simpler and more flexible. I also use my clip in sling (Spelegyca) to clip my pack, thus hanging it below me. Makes for a nice sequence, too: 1. clip to anchor, 2. install rappel device, 3. unclip from anchor and clip to pack, 4. rappel.

Tom

Roger, isn't this S.O.P.? I would hope what you describe above would be canyoning 101 for most who have a little sense.

[ratagonia]

Rich, AKA guru...
Thank you for your compliment regarding the style of leadership that ATS displays. I want to thank you for your guidance. You have been a perfect example of exactly what I/ ATS should never look like persoanlly and professioanlly. Your last paragraph is proof of what I am talking about.

Perhaps you should start another organization that deal's with people that don't see things your way.
...

Gee Darren, visiting someone's home and pissing on their floor is SOOOOOOOOOOOO professional. Is the style of leadership that ATS teaches?

And just to toss some more fuel on the fire, spelling words correctly might make you look a little more professional.

Most people, when they start an organization, prefer to start one of like-minded individuals. Call em crazy!!



I recieve e-mail's and voice mails on a regular basis from folks that simply cannot believe your undisciplined approach to what you do! You have a great thing going but it should be taken from your hands and left in the minds of a competent B.O.D. Your need to police canyoneering in the USA has made you very transparant. It is proven to myself and to many others that your entire identity is consumed by what you do. Regardless of your experince in europe or where ever, you have missed out on the most important fact in teaching... remaining teachable. With so much experince you should be over such a need to have an answer for everything... Resentments have injured more people in the outdoors than an auto block ever could. Thanks again...

Ah, that's an old Rich trick - see you did learn something from him! The old "I receive thousands of emails...". Yeah, sure.

What Rich teaches is the EFC techniques developed by hundreds of working canyon guides in Europe over the last 20 years. The telling moment for me was when my very experienced climber friend Charly Oliver took the course and said "I learned more ropework in 6 days than I learned in 20 years of climbing". Several minutes later, when I closed my mouth, I decided to check it out. I have climbed all over the USA including two trip up El Capitan, I have worked in the climbing industry as a product designer for 20 years, and I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering from MIT, and I learned more ropework in 6 days with Rich than I learned in 25 years of climbing.

Tom

[cjain]

Hmmm. When I tie webbing, it stays tied exactly like I want it to.

An interesting take, however, I think maybe teaching people to tie webbing so it stays tied might be a better way to do it.

Tom,

What knot do you use? I find that water knots tied in webbing seem to work themselves loose over time, no matter how carefully I dress them or how tight I make them. OTOH, double fisherman's knots tied with cord seem to be more permanent.

[ratagonia]

Tom,

What knot do you use? I find that water knots tied in webbing seem to work themselves loose over time, no matter how carefully I dress them or how tight I make them. OTOH, double fisherman's knots tied with cord seem to be more permanent.

For tying webbing together, I use a water knot, well-dressed and set with body weight. Leave about 3" tails. I have not had a problem with them coming undone, if they are set well. But I also take a good look at em every time I use them.

While it is nice to have tied slings in case you need to leave em, I carry 4-5 sewn over-the-shoulder slings for just general use. No worries about untying, and the knot does not get in the way.

Tom

[Paul Nelson]

Tom,

What knot do you use? I find that water knots tied in webbing seem to work themselves loose over time, no matter how carefully I dress them or how tight I make them. OTOH, double fisherman's knots tied with cord seem to be more permanent.

A study by Tom Moyer showed that a water knot after repeated loading and unloading can work loose. :eek: The solution is, in addition to a long tail, is to tie off the tail around the working part with an overhand knot. :)

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Water_Knot_Testing.pdf

[ratagonia]

A study by Tom Moyer showed that a water knot after repeated loading and unloading can work loose. :eek: The solution is, in addition to a long tail, is to tie off the tail around the working part with an overhand knot. :)

http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Water_Knot_Testing.pdf

Here's a quote from Moyer's Paper:



Test Methods
I used a small MTS load frame to pull on a loop of 9/16" tubular webbing tied with a water knot. The load was cycled from 0 to 250 lbs at a fairly slow loading and unloading rate (about two seconds per cycle). Loads and
extensions were measured directly by the load frame. The test was halted automatically upon failure of the knot.

Results
The test showed consistent slipping of one of the tails into the knot at an average rate of 0.0035 inches per cycle. A knot that started with tails almost three inches long had one tail gone after 806 cycles. It was interesting to note that only one of the tails slipped into the knot - the one on the "top" side of the knot.

A test with overhand safeties on the water knot gradually slipped through 1.75 inches of tail, and then cinched andid not slip any further. Interestingly, the slip rate was not linear as in the first test, but decreased as the safeties
gradually tightened.



So, yes, it does slip, but very, very slowly. About 300 cycles per inch. So tie yourself 3" tails, and retie it when they creep down to 1-1/2", in, say, 10 years - ha ha, OK, that was a little harsh.

Yes, you should be aware that water knots need tails, and that they CAN slip, but please see that in a practical sense they don't slip much.

YMMV: might slip more or less with the webbing you use. Might slip more or less when wet. Be careful out there.

Tom

[rcwild]

Ah, that's an old Rich trick - see you did learn something from him! The old "I receive thousands of emails...". Yeah, sure.

Sarcasm, Tom? That's my job.

Out of context. Besides, I'm sure I said about 100 per day. You replied that YOU received thousands per day. Or was it millions? :D

I'm sure Darren was referring to calls and emails received on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Those are the days set aside for complaints about the ACA's lack of control or discipline (especially at rendezvous). On Mondays and Wednesdays, people complain that the ACA exercises too much control and discipline. On Tuesdays and Fridays, they complain that we're not anti-bolt enough. On Wednesdays and Saturdays, they complain that we don't do enough bolt maintenance or place enough new bolts. :confused:

[mtngoat59102]

Tuesdays and Thursdays. Those are the days set aside for complaints about the ACA's lack of control or discipline (especially at rendezvous). On Mondays and Wednesdays, people complain that the ACA exercises too much control and discipline. On Tuesdays and Fridays, they complain that we're not anti-bolt enough. On Wednesdays and Saturdays, they complain that we don't do enough bolt maintenance or place enough new bolts. :confused:

Well, that leaves Sunday wide open! I'm leaving Sunday to cry about all the cry baby whinners that take themselves WAY TOO SERIOUSLY. The world would be a happier place if you shut your complaining pie holes, stopped stabbing each other in the back like a bunch of juvinile 11th graders fighting over a prom date and just went canyoneering. Besides, rap'ing Auzie style directly into a siphon using battery acid as an edge protector while rigged toss-N-go with a chest harness and a quickdraw off your back pack to keep you upright is just another way to problem solve, right? I say, 'Accreditation for all and buy stock in a good body bag company, let the rules of Darwin reign!' There, that will keep Sunday pretty full.

Got another log to throw on this fire?

[rcwild]

Neil,

I was using the Mon/Wed vs Tue/Thu thing to point out that there is a split between people who think there is too much control and those who think there is not enough (especially related to rendezvous). I realize after reading your post that it may have sounded like I was referring to the frequency of complaints. Complaints are very rare.

The volume of emails I receive (referenced by Tom) contain questions about courses and rendezvous, clarification questions from students and forum users, etc.

Someone once pointed out to me that ACA membership and the canyoneering community at large can be defined using a bell curve. It's true. At one end of the curve is a small minority that will not be happy no matter what we do. At the other end is a small minority of die-hard supporters that will be happy no matter what we do. The overwhelming majority are in between. You can apply the bell curve to specific issues, too. Bolts. Rendezvous. Etc.

This has been an unusual thread. It's still under Techniques and Gear. Something about a rappelling technique?

[rcwild]

The ACA's main goal is to promote safety, primarily through training. This section of our forums is an extension of our training efforts. Users are encouraged to ask questions, share ideas and debate the merits of one technique over another in various canyon conditions. I will participate in many of the discussions. When I critique techniques I will try to distinguish between:

1. Reasonable options with pros and cons.

2. Options that will work, but may not be the most efficient or appropriate to a given situation.

3. High risk or dangerous options that should not be used in a given situation.

This thread contains examples of all three.

1. It began with a simple question about extending the rappel device from the harness and controlling with two hands. This technique is a reasonable option with pros and cons.

2. The thread contains a short discussion about rigging the rope toss-n-go and doing wet disconnects. This will work, but is not as efficient as setting the rope length and rigging with a block or contingency anchor. It is not appropriate when rappelling in a waterfall or landing in current or a hydraulic.

3. The thread also contains a discussion about beginners using an auto-block when rappelling in a waterfall with heavy flow. This is dangerous and should not be done.