Rope Management - Bag or Coil?

[Kirk]

What are the pros/cons in choosing to coil ropes "climber style" vs. stack in a rope bag? What influences the decision?

- Handling characteristics (diameter, length, weight, stiffness, and/or composition)?

- Canyon logistics (drop length, water presence, brush, etc.)?

- Or is it simply user whim? It seems in the San Gabriels there's a general preference for "coil n' carry" and not much for "pack the sack."

[ratagonia]

What are the pros/cons in choosing to coil ropes "climber style" vs. stack in a rope bag? What influences the decision?

- Handling characteristics (diameter, length, weight, stiffness, and/or composition)?

- Canyon logistics (drop length, water presence, brush, etc.)?

- Or is it simply user whim? It seems in the San Gabriels there's a general preference for "coil n' carry" and not much for "pack the sack."

A rope bag costs money and weighs a fair amount. The fancy Rope Silos I make weigh just over a pound, and are a very awkward shape to carry. So there is a fair amount of overhead associated with carrying the ropebag.

In canyon, in the rappels, a ropebag makes things so much faster and easier. Thus the title, patience. I am famous for having little. A ropebag deploys the rope first go, almost every time. No tangles, no knots, no hanging up on flakes. I can be back in camp drinking beer while you are still trying to get the first rappel straightened out... (OK, that was a little snide).

Summary: if the canyon has more than a few rappels, and/or the rappels have complications (such as water, or not being able to see the bottom, or brush), it is probably worth carrying a ropebag if you have one.

The other way we put it is, once you use a ropebag, you will not go back. Except Shane, he still resists.

Tom

[mtngoat59102]

Well, rope bags seem to get in the way while e-canyoneering. They always clutter up my office. While actually canyoning they tend to be pretty handy.

While Tom's rope bags are really slick (hold themselves open and float!) they are not the only option. However, after doing enough canyons with rope bags, after going out with people who don't use them I find rope managment w/out them to be slow and frustrating. Maybe, it's what you're used to. If you're working a short rope on lots of little drops I can see why rope bags might be more of a pain. Everything else, non-rope bag technique is lost on me and I've done it both ways more than once.

BTW, insert floating rope bag into any of those, OMG I sunk my rope stories ... get it?

[catware11]

Well, rope bags seem to get in the way while e-canyoneering. They always clutter up my office. LOL! :D

I have two small rope bags for my 65m 8mm ropes. They are the best. I love standing at the top of a 150' rappel, rigging it toss 'n go, and throwing both bags down over the side. The rope feeds effortlessly out of the bag and there's a big 'smack' at the bottom when it hits. I've never had a hang up, ever. As opposed to coiling the rope and tossing it over in two parts, which always makes it about halfway down and gets stuck...

[skianddive]

- Or is it simply user whim? It seems in the San Gabriels there's a general preference for "coil n' carry" and not much for "pack the sack."
"Once you've used a sack, you won't go back!"

I suspect you haven't gone canyoneering with the right people in the San Gabriels. ;)

Last Sunday when the 9 of us did Little Santa Anita, we used 3 ropes and 3 rope bags. Unfortunately, one rope bag was not a floater so it had to be rescued from a pool, but that's another story - and another lesson learned.

Gee, weren't you supposed to go on that hike?

[Canyonette]

"Once you've used a sack, you won't go back!"
I suspect you haven't gone canyoneering with the right people in the San Gabriels. ;)

Hmmmm...don't know that a person should be labeled "right" or "wrong" in regards to a preference, but I myself also prefer a rope bag to coiling and slinging. I'm the proud owner of an Imlay Gear - Rope Silo, which I LOVE! It isn't perfect (might be closer to perfect if it had back-pack like carrying straps). It's a little awkward to carry, but it's the best rope bag I've found. Beware - that it may not float once the rope get's water logged!

My friend who introduced me to canyoneering 3 years ago carried a rope bag, and so have most folks that I've canyoneered with since. It wasn't until recently (this year) that I actually went canyoneering with folks who coiled instead of bagged (this was in the San Gabriel's) and we all caught a really bad case of poison oak on our forearms, and I also caught it all over my neck. I attributed it to the increased contact with the rope! Not a problem everywhere, but it's certainly something to consider whilst descending canyons in the San Gabriel’s.

~Happy Trails

~MD Canyonette

[ratagonia]

LOL! :D

I have two small rope bags for my 65m 8mm ropes. They are the best. I love standing at the top of a 150' rappel, rigging it toss 'n go, and throwing both bags down over the side. The rope feeds effortlessly out of the bag and there's a big 'smack' at the bottom when it hits. I've never had a hang up, ever. As opposed to coiling the rope and tossing it over in two parts, which always makes it about halfway down and gets stuck...

That pretty much nails it on the head, except that IF you are using the ropebags to manage the ropes, then you are NOT using the "Toss and Tangle" method.

Tom

[dccampen]

Bagged rope is much better than coils.

[Spatulator]

I love standing at the top of a 150' rappel, rigging it toss 'n go...

If you've switched over to using a rope bag, maybe it's time to complete the evolution and start using other rigging methods. Blocks and contigency anchors work really well and allow you to do a lot of things in an emergency situation that you will really appreciate when the time comes. Not trying to be snide, just encouraging learning.

[rcwild]

When I first read the post about rigging toss-n-go and throwing both bags, it reminded me of another technique -- the two bag block combo.

You're moving through a canyon with two ropes, each 200 feet long, because you know the longest rappel is just shy of 200 feet. You come to a rappel that is 150 feet. If you rig in the toss-n-go fashion described in the previous post, one of your ropes must come all the way out of the bag to retrieve it. So you are pulling and re-stuffing 50 extra feet of rope.

Instead, feed 150 feet of rope out of one bag, through the rap ring and block it. Figure eight on a bight works well as a block for this technique. Last person down positions the first rope bag over the edge so it will come down easily, then fixes the rope to the bag so no more rope can come out. He then attaches the end of the second rope to the figure eight on a bight on the first rope, rappels on the first rope as the second rope is deployed out of the second bag. At the bottom, he pulls on the second rope. The weight of the first bag aids in pulling the rope.

Cautions: (1) Last person should rig for rappel on the first rope before securing the second bag over the edge. Otherwise, the weight of the bag could pull the rope prematurely. (2) Technique works on clear drops where there is no risk of the pulled bag becoming stuck.

ACA students are familiar with a simple variation of this technique used in emergencies to extend the pull side with webbing, cord, etc.

[verlyndhawks]

I did the coil and carry thing for the first half a dozen canyons I did - and hated it - before I even knew what a rope bag was.

Once I got my first rope bag there has been no consideration for doing anything else.
It is so much easier and faster to deploy and bag the rope than to coil it. It also seems to be better on the rope (i.e protection wihle throwing, carrying, transport, etc.

I have about a dozen bags of different sizes (from Ben's moutain shop, Imlay, a friend that makes them, etc.) and use them for everything from my short ropes and pull cords to my real long ones.
I like Tom's floating ones though I will admit to using a very small innertube to float a large rope bag thru pine creek a couple of times :-) The innertube fit around the bag perfectly and floated like a charm. Bit awkward though.

I can't understand why anyone would not use a rope bag once they try it.
Guess there must be something I don't understand.
Verlyn

[ratagonia]

When I first read the post about rigging toss-n-go and throwing both bags, it reminded me of another technique -- the two bag block combo.

You're moving through a canyon with two ropes, each 200 feet long, because you know the longest rappel is just shy of 200 feet. You come to a rappel that is 150 feet. If you rig in the toss-n-go fashion described in the previous post, one of your ropes must come all the way out of the bag to retrieve it. So you are pulling and re-stuffing 50 extra feet of rope.


Hey Rich - I thought you were going to explain how to do an effective contingency anchor in this same situation.

Allow me to explain how to set up this kind of rappel quickly and easily, WITHOUT setting it up with a contingency anchor:

1. Thread the top of the rope through the rapide, then tie, clip or block the top of the rope at the anchor. If you have a clean shot, toss off the bag. If not, rappel with the bag. First person raps down.

2. With one person down, set the rope length. The rigger pulls up rope until the first person down calls 'that's me' (or similar); then blocks (or contingencies) the rope. Subsequent people rappel.

3. Last person down bats clean up. Leave the block, tie your second rope or
retrieval cord to the end of the rappelling rope. Loop down the 50 feet of the first rope, or stuff it in the bag. Rap with the bag, or chuck it if it is a clean drop AND you can see the people below.

4. Pull the cord and restuff.

Tom

[rcwild]

Slick system, Tom. I liked the system I described because it eliminates pulling out extra rope from the bags -- 150 feet is used from each bag. The system you described involves pulling 200 feet from first bag (150 foot rappel, plus extra 50 feet) and 100 feet from the second bag (added to the 50 feet on the pull side). Same amount of rope used, but simpler to set up. I like it.

Contingency anchor would be a bit more challenging to set up. If someone got in trouble higher than 50 feet from the bottom, lowering would be complicated by the knot needed to connect the two ropes. But here are a couple possibilities:

1. Thread the top of the first rope through the rapide and set the rope length.

2. Tie the end of the second rope to the first rope, just below the rapide.

3. Rig a contingency anchor using the second rope on a carabiner clipped to the anchor separate from the rapide.

4. Untie the bottom of the first rope from the bag, just in case the contingency anchor needs to be deployed. If it is necessary, the extra 50 feet of rope will come out of the bag and pass through the rapide.

5. Last person down converts to the two bag block combo deal described in Tom's post.

OR (variation of classic knot passing technique)

1. Thread the top of the first rope through the rapide, set the rope length and rig a contingency anchor.

2. Set up a load releasing rig with webbing or cord (mariner or munter-mule) so it is ready if needed.

3. If contingency anchor needs to be deployed, lower until you get near the end of the first rope. Stop and lock it off.

4. Connect load releasing rig to first rope with prussik or ascender. Unlock contingency anchor and lower until load releasing rig holds the load.

5. Pull remaining tail of first rope out of rapide and connect the two ropes.

6. De-rig contingency anchor from first rope. Re-rig with second rope, just above the knot. Lock it off.

7. Use the load releasing rig to lower rope until load is taken by new contingency anchor.

8. Remove the load releasing rig, unlock contingency anchor and continue lowering.

9. Last person down converts to the two bag block combo deal described in Tom's post.

[AlexGeorge]

I Use Both in different situations to save time. I use the rope bag if i have a 50 ft repel and 200 ft of rope. This saves managing 100 ft of rope. But say i have to take the whole rope out of the bag several times in a row ( long raps) then i coil it because i am faster at coiling it then stuffing. more often situations then not i use the rope bag.

[brit_caver]

never done a canyon

but for caving and climbing - never used any technique but " bag stuffing "

in tight spaces and vegitation - carried coils attract every bit of dirt , moss , alge , mud , etc etc

i have seen a guy with a coilded rope in each hand get hopelessly tangled in a hawthorn bush that protected the scramble upto a great crag - we just used our rope bags as battering rams and ploughted through it

rope coils have a mind oth thier own - and a loop or end will always try to escape and either snare your legs or a branch , flake of rock

pluss bags give protection from UV