Rope - General Considerations

[rcwild]

Submitted by Mark rosen

While there is no one perfect canyoneering rope there are many ropes that will work well and some work better than others do. If you come from a climbing background and have an old 50-meter climbing rope, I would suggest that you start out using it. I wouldn't use your brand new climbing rope for canyoneering because you will ruin it and after a few canyons it won't be a good climbing rope. Unlike climbing ropes, canyoneering ropes never really wear out. They just get shorter. If you don't have a rope now and are in the market for one I suggest that your best first canyoneering rope would be a 9mm x 60 meter (200 foot) nylon or polyester static rope.

A rope is made up of a core and a sheath. The core has several twisted strands that are covered by the sheath. The core gives the rope its tensile strength while the sheath protects it.

Rope Materials

Nylon core and nylon sheath makes a great rope. It is strong and relatively light while maintaining good wear and handling characteristics. It weighs about 8% less than polyester.

Polyester is a relatively new material for use with ropes. Compared to nylon it is suppose to have less elongation, higher tensile strength, better UV and chemical resistance, superior handling characteristics, and absorb less water.

You can find ropes that use a nylon core and polyester sheath.

Ropes found in hardware stores are not appropriate for canyoneering.

Specialty ropes: There are ropes made of Aramic, Kevler, Vectran, Spectra, and polypropylene that I call specialty ropes. Recently companies have worked with these materials, sometimes in combinations, to take advantage of some of the materials special characteristics. At this time I cannot recommend any of them as a first rope. If you need one of these unique ropes you don't need my advice on ropes.

Polypropylene has been used in some specialty ropes in Europe for routes where there is a lot of water. It has the advantages of being light and floating rather than sinking. It is not an appropriate material for your first rope and it is not a good material for a canyoneering rope on the Colorado Plateau. Without the cold running water the heat generated at your rappel device can melt the rope.

Rope Diameter

Nine millimeters is a good size for a first rope. You can read posts on the e-group from people who like 7mm up to 11 mm. Seven and eight millimeter ropes are light and easy on the back when hiking in but are not good first ropes. You will find that many experienced people have a lot of problems with rope damage with the smaller rope. For your first rope 9mm has a good combination of relatively lightweight and yet a margin of safety. You may find that the rope isn't always as advertised. I remember buying a rope advertised as nine millimeters but when I received the rope the package insert said "actual diameter 9.8 mm." I also purchased a spool of rope advertised as 3/8 (which is 9.5 mm) but it is much closer to10.5mm. One very good rope manufacture states "size close approximation to actual size" on their web site. The sizes are close but not exact.

Rope Length

Sixty meters is a good length for your first rope. It wasn't long ago that the 50-meter rope was the standard but now it is probably the 60-meter rope. The extra 10 meters gives you just a margin of safety, which is useful. It is also nice if you damage the sheath of your rope near the end. Ropes shrink a bit so if you are using a 50-meter rope for a 50-meter drop you could easily look down and see that your rope doesn't reach the ground. This can be a bit unnerving if it is your first canyon. Actually ropes also stretch so it will probably be long enough when you rappel down. If you get a 60-meter rope it is plenty long enough for a 50-meter drop and it may even be long enough to work you knot over the ledge to make the pull easier.

Rope vs. Accessory Cord

Rope is different than accessory cord. It is usually stronger with a better sheath. I read recently on the e-groups at one manufacturer the rope and accessory cord were the same. I then went to the web site and while they claimed that the quality of the rope and the quality of the accessory cord were the same the sheath weave and the number of fibers in the core and the sheath were both different. Generally, rope will have both more consistent quality and a thicker sheath than accessory cord. One can use quality accessory cord for canyoneering but for your first rope buy a rope not an accessory cord.

Static Vs Dynamic

While you can use both static and dynamic rope, static is easier to climb, has less stretch so it bounces less, and is a little less likely to get cut when running over corners. It static rope is also a bit lighter than dynamic rope.

Summary

In summary I would suggest that you buy a 9mm by 60m polyester or nylon static rope.

[rcwild]

I think 9mm is a tad thin, it depends on what device you use of course, but when you don't know what your partners may be abseiling on i prefer using 10mm rope - it doesn't stretch as much and makes it easier pulling down!

I agree with 60m as a length, it's the most useful length in the blue mountains. And when the inevitable happens and you have to chop one end off, it can go down to a still-usable 50m+ length, rather than a mostly useless 42m length!

adam
www.octapod.org/adam

[kambinggurun]

hi..

i'm just a newbie in this kind of thing and want to ask you something..

1) why we call it static rope, when the rope not exactly static?
2) do semi-static or semi-dinamic rope exist? if it exist, then for what it could be used? climbing or descending or ascending or whatever else you name it..
3) physically what is the difference between static and dinamic rope?
any other differences between both kind of rope?
4) what is or are the exact use of static rope and dinamic rope?


please advice..:D

[charlybldr]

1) why we call it static rope, when the rope not exactly static?
2) do semi-static or semi-dinamic rope exist? if it exist, then for what it could be used? climbing or descending or ascending or whatever else you name it..
3) physically what is the difference between static and dinamic rope?
any other differences between both kind of rope?

The term "static" tends to be used when describing ropes that have little or no stretch compaired to the "dynamic" or high stretch ropes used for rock climbing and mountaineering. Dynamic ropes need to stretch to absorb the energy of a falling climber.

Ropes that are used primarily for support (either ascending or rapelling) don't need to stretch as much. In fact, they work better for this purpose if they don't stretch a lot. These ropes are generically referred to as static. It's not quite that simple though, 'cause static ropes are divided into "low stretch" and "no stretch".

Low stretch ropes will stretch a little bit. This improves their ride as well as their overall performance and durability. They will stretch some to help absorb the energy of a slip while ascending or rappelling.

No stretch ropes, don't stretch. This is nice when you are ascending. But can be less than desirable in situations where the rope might be subjected to dynamic loading, as in a short slip or a bouncy rappel.


4) what is or are the exact use of static rope and dinamic rope?

Dynamic rope
Used for rock climbing and mountaineering.

Low Stretch rope
Used in sports like canyoneering and caving. Best overall choice for canyoneering.

No Stretch rope
These ropes are used to maximize weight savings or for special use. They are not the best choice for all around use but have their place in the hands of a skilled user.

[kambinggurun]

thanks charlybldr..

2 more questions though, hope you nevermind..:D :D

1)so what about the semi-static rope and semi-dinamic rope?
are they exist? or are they classified as low stretch static rope?


2) what are the practical ways to reduce the damage on the rope in usage? you know better how sand, rock, heat, uv radiation or anthing else would damage the rope.. and after usage, do i have to cleanse the rope? if yes , then how to cleanse?

please advice..

[charlybldr]

1)so what about the semi-static rope and semi-dinamic rope?
are they exist? or are they classified as low stretch static rope?

Semi-static = low stretch. Semi-dynamic doesn't exist.


2) what are the practical ways to reduce the damage on the rope in usage?

1. Don't allow the rope to lay over any sharp or abrasive edges.
2. Don't allow the rope to scrape side to side while on rappel.
3. Always package and deploy the rope out of a bag.
4. Use a releasable hitch/contingency anchor to adjust abrasion points between rappelers.
5. Re-bag the rope directly out of water at every opportunity to keep sand and dirt off the rope.
6. Always rappel in control. Pay attention to where the rope lies above your head (no sharp edges). Never bounce, swing or "speed" rappel.


you know better how sand, rock, heat, uv radiation or anthing else would damage the rope..

All those things can contribute to rope damage. Following the above recommendations will prevent much of this damage.


and after usage, do i have to cleanse the rope? if yes , then how to cleanse?

Regularly re-baging the rope directly out of water helps keep the rope clean. Rinse in clean flowing water whenever possible. Allow the rope to dry completely before storage. You can wash your rope if you need to but a good thorough rinse in the stream works just as well.

[adrian]

One problem with accessory cord is that the sheath "slips". I bought some 9 mm at REI 70ft. to do Little Sanata Anita (w/ pull cord) and by the end of the trip downcanyon the sheath had moved or rather stretched an additional 5" off the end. So it ended up abrading the tip and exposing some of the inner core. Just one trip but I retired the cord after that.

[charlybldr]

One problem with accessory cord is that the sheath "slips". I bought some 9 mm at REI 70ft. to do Little Sanata Anita (w/ pull cord) and by the end of the trip downcanyon the sheath had moved or rather stretched an additional 5" off the end..

All ropes experience sheath slip to one degree or another. The amount depends on how tightly the sheath is braided around the core. You can simply cut off the extra sheath and re-seal the end.


So it ended up abrading the tip and exposing some of the inner core. Just one trip but I retired the cord after that.

Not sure what you mean by this but as long as you only have to trim the excess sheath and re-seal, no need to retire the rope.

[catware11]

My first rope several years ago was 50m of 8mm accessory cord bought at REI. I used it as my sole rope for maybe a dozen canyons with no problem at all -- then I bought more (longer) ropes. I still use the 50m rope on occasion for canyons where it is suitable (i.e., ones that have short enough drops).

The REI rope's load is rated to 3500 lbs which gives a nice safety factor of 20+ for me. (My subsequent 8mm ropes are rated to 4200 lbs)

[kambinggurun]

is it compulsory to have a logbook of the rope usage?
if it is, then what to write in the book?

[ratagonia]

All ropes experience sheath slip to one degree or another. The amount depends on how tightly the sheath is braided around the core. You can simply cut off the extra sheath and re-seal the end.


If the core and sheath have the same stretch characteristics, then there will be a much lesser tendency for the sheath to slip. My Imlay ropes, Polyester sheath over polyester core, tightly woven, thick sheath - there is zero sheath slippage.

Tom

[ratagonia]

is it compulsory to have a logbook of the rope usage?
if it is, then what to write in the book?

For a dynamic lead-climbing rope, the HISTORY of the rope provides information that is not available by inspection. How many falls, how long, what conditions, has the rope held? This is information that is useful to know about a climbing rope.

There is little to no information that is 'hidden' about a canyoneering rope. You can learn everything you need to know about it by inspection. The logbook has little value, except: a. to allow you to reminice (sp?) about all the good canyons you did with that rope; and b. to allow you to judge how long the rope is lasting, to decide whether it was a good value or perhaps you should buy a different brand next time.

INSPECTION - canyoneering ropes fail via "Core Shots", which is where one or more of the fibers of the sheath are actually cut ("shot") so that the core can be seen inside. Once it is coreshot, once ONE of the outside fibers is cut, the shot will work its way around the outside (in a spiral) and eventually the sheath will fully seperate, and someone will "take the ride". This usually leads to an unpleasant release of the bowels, so should be avoided.

Inspection will usually reveal some soft spots, where the sheat is abraded, but no full fibers are cut. These should be watched carefully, but are generally OK.

If very much helps to move the rope after each rappeller, but sometimes the "core-shotting rough place" that you are rappelling over cannot be avoided, fully. I lost two ropes on Engelstead this year because my way-cool, new rappel spot had a hard edge that the rope passed over 20 feet down. It is a long rappel, but each person, rapping 220 feet below this spot, put in a core-shot. Including me. My 300 footer is not a 210 footer and a bunch of shorter chunks.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Submitted by Mark Rosen

Rope Materials

Nylon core and nylon sheath makes a great rope. It is strong and relatively light while maintaining good wear and handling characteristics. It weighs about 8% less than polyester.

Polyester is a relatively new material for use with ropes. Compared to nylon it is suppose to have less elongation, higher tensile strength, better UV and chemical resistance, superior handling characteristics, and absorb less water.

You can find ropes that use a nylon core and polyester sheath.


Since I make 100% polyester ropes, perhaps I am a tad prejudiced.

Nylon ropes are great for dry conditions, but work only fair to middling in wet conditions. Nylon absorbs water and changes characteristics. It becomes softer, less tough and changes size. A nylon rope that is tightly woven when dry might be softly woven and have sheath slippage problems when wet (like the BD Trail Lines I used to recommend). Nylon tends to cut easier when it is wet, and, perhaps more importantly, it weighs quite a bit more when wet.

Polyester, on the other hand, adsorbs some water on the surface, but does not absorb any. It's characteristics change little when wet. Polyester is about 8% less strong than an equivalent volume of nylon when dry, but nylon loses about 10% of its strength when wet, so its a wash on strength. Actual strength is rarely an issue in rappelling, while toughness (resistance to cutting) is probably the most important property. Nylon might be tougher when dry, but polyester seems to be tougher when wet.

Nylon is a superior material for dynamic ropes. Nylon itself is more "springy" than polyester, and, with the scientific application of electrical charges, more springyness can be charged into the core fibers (thus making a dynamic climbing rope).

For static ropes, how static you want your rope is a matter of personal preference. I have been using my 100% polyester ropes in 8mm and 9mm, and the Bluewater 9.2mm Canyon rope (polyester sheath, nylon core). The BW Canyon is definitely more bouncy, a property that I don't especially like. Some people claim that the extra bounce acts as a safety factor, but I don't find this argument convincing, since I rarely "lob off" while rappelling, and my soft middle acts as a good energy absorber, reducing shock loads.

But really, the best thing about the 100% polyester ropes is that they do not gain much weight when going in and out of pools. Some, significant, but MUCH less than a nylon rope.

Tom

[ratagonia]

thanks charlybldr..

2 more questions though, hope you nevermind..:D :D

1)so what about the semi-static rope and semi-dinamic rope?
are they exist? or are they classified as low stretch static rope?


The difference between a Dynamic Climbing rope and a Static rope is BIG. Dynamic ropes have a very large amount of stretch designed into the rope, which makes the rope "soft". They meet a strict, international standard for performance. The main consequence of this is that if you fall ("lob off") while lead climbing (above your last piece), that the rope will stretch while absorbing your fall, and the stretch decreases the load in the system to well-defined, reasonable levels.

If you lead climb on a static, or semi-static, rope, and lob off, something bad happens. The rope does not stretch sufficiently, and once the rope comes tight, the forces go up rather quickly. Generally, stuff will start to break in the following order: your belayer (will not be able to hold the fall), you (the lobber), the protection piece (unless it is a bolt), the rock around the protection piece, the carabiner, the rope.

So, wouldn't be better to ALWAYS use a dynamic rope, just in case?

If you are a complete klutz, maybe. For the rest of us, taking anything even remotely close to a "real fall" while on a rappelling rope requires quite a few errors to converge, and very, very rarely happens. Avoid it, but paying attention. If you are doing the "jump start" rappels, you should use a dynamic rope, preferrably the softest available.

Tom

[kambinggurun]

b. to allow you to judge how long the rope is lasting, to decide whether it was a good value or perhaps you should buy a different brand next time.
Tom

how to judge how long the rope is lasting? i've heard that after 5 years of usage, the rope should be abandoned..or but i think it should depend on the frequency of usage..

please advice..

[rcwild]

If the core and sheath have the same stretch characteristics, then there will be a much lesser tendency for the sheath to slip. My Imlay ropes, Polyester sheath over polyester core, tightly woven, thick sheath - there is zero sheath slippage.

Just for clarification, there's more to "stretch characteristics" than just material. The way the sheath and core are braided can make a difference. So don't assume that any rope with polyester sheath and polyester core, or nylon sheath and nylon core, or whatever, will have similar stretch characteristics.

Zero slippage, Tom?

[rcwild]

how to judge how long the rope is lasting? i've heard that after 5 years of usage, the rope should be abandoned..or but i think it should depend on the frequency of usage..

Forget that 5 year thing. Inspect your rope regularly -- before and after each use -- and retire it when you feel it should be retired.

If you are using it frequently for canyoneering, it is unlikely it will last anywhere close to 5 years. Not uncommon to trash a rope in one season.

[charlybldr]

Nylon tends to cut easier when it is wet, and, perhaps more importantly, it weighs quite a bit more when wet.

The weight thing is my biggest consideration. Lighter is indeed righter!


For static ropes, how static you want your rope is a matter of personal preference. I have been using my 100% polyester ropes in 8mm and 9mm, and the Bluewater 9.2mm Canyon rope (polyester sheath, nylon core). The BW Canyon is definitely more bouncy, a property that I don't especially like. Some people claim that the extra bounce acts as a safety factor, but I don't find this argument convincing, since I rarely "lob off" while rappelling, and my soft middle acts as a good energy absorber, reducing shock loads.

I mostly use Tom's ropes (8mm and 9mm) and the BlueWater Canyon Pro (8mm) for trips with experienced partners (like Tom). Very little if any stretch. Experienced canyoners understand this and rappel smoothly and in control taking great care to not bounce on the anchors.

The extra shock absorbing ability of a nylon core rope is important for the less experienced who do think they are rappelling smoothly and in control but actually are bouncing and swinging around. Or maybe because of their lack of experience they accidently slip or swing out of control. This can be very dangerous particularly when using less than bombproof anchors. It is probably wise for these people to have the extra shock absorbing qualities of a nylon core rope.

Bouncing, swinging or accidental dynamic loading will also tend to abraid the sheath of a no stretch rope easier than a low stretch rope. Can you say "core shot"?



But really, the best thing about the 100% polyester ropes is that they do not gain much weight when going in and out of pools. Some, significant, but MUCH less than a nylon rope.

Tom

This is indeed the best feature of 100% polyester ropes.

[hank_moon]

This is indeed the best feature of 100% polyester ropes.

AND they dry a whole lot faster - better for the next day's approach!

[dccampen]

My first rope several years ago was 50m of 8mm accessory cord bought at REI. ...
The REI rope's load is rated to 3500 lbs which gives a nice safety factor of 20+ for me.
When the rope is wet and/or tied in a knot the breaking strength may be only half that value.

[kambinggurun]

after rappeling, i saw the rope twisting. do this twisting capable of causing something to the rope or devices?? curious...

[ratagonia]

after rappeling, i saw the rope twisting. do this twisting capable of causing something to the rope or devices?? curious...

Rope Twisting is more an annoyance than a danger.

Rope Twisting is caused by a twisting rope path through the rappel device. A path that is on a single plane will not impart a twist, but a path that moves through three dimensions will. The more bent the path, the more twist. Figure of 8s (in figure 8 mode) are especially bad.

Twisted ropes can be an annoyance for ATC-type devices that hard-separate the strands. ATC-rappers don't like rapping after Figure-8 rappers.

Twisted ropes can be an annoyance when pulling the ropes. One should first fully straighten out the strands before pulling, but this can be difficult if the full length of the rope is not visible. The twisting in the rope can also cause curlycues that get stuck at the top. Not good.

Twisting annoyances can be minimized by:

A. not using regular figure of 8 devices.
B. setting the rope length with the rope end off the ground, so twists can run out the end.
C. rapping single strand, so the two strands do not twist around each other.

Tom

[crankin]

You can also use a "Splitter 'Biner."

Running a carabiner through the Fig8 and around one of the strands heading towards the anchor will effectively "split" the strands after going through the device. You can also use your tether.

"Don't mess with my Huit Huit." -Rockin' Sidney Simien

[rcwild]

Rope Twisting is more an annoyance than a danger.


Twisted ropes can be an annoyance for ATC-type devices that hard-separate the strands. ATC-rappers don't like rapping after Figure-8 rappers.

It can be a serious danger in Class C canyons -- rappelling in current or landing in a hydraulic -- if you're rappelling on two strands.

Water current can twist the rope severely below a rappeller. Major problem for ATC users because the two strands of rope must pass separately through the two slots. Twists can bring them to an abrupt hault. Not as severe problem for figure 8 users because the two twisted ropes can pass through the figure 8 together.

[kambinggurun]

other question:

really a jumar or teethy (is there such a word) rope clamper can cause damage to the rope? to the sheath or to the core?

prussik or kleimheist any better of jumar?

[rambler-joe]

I think 9mm is a tad thin,
adam
www.octapod.org/adam (http://www.octapod.org/adam)
Hi Rich.
You talk about using 8mm rope in canyons. Do you use standard size hard ware and if so how do you rig it to give enough friction? If not, what hardware do you use. I am keen to go to single 9mm, contingency anchored, but find even an ATC a bit fast over a longish rapell.
Rambler Joe

[rcwild]

ATC?

Why aren't you using a PittStop or Whale Tail? :D

Canyoneers here are using standard-size devices on 8mm ropes. It is true that friction is an issue. There are several threads on this forum about the risks, including THIS ONE (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=664)

A figure eight provides more rigging options than an ATC. Yes, it can twist the rope more yada yada yada, but that's not such a big issue when you're rappelling on a single strand and the rope length is set.

Tricks people are using to add friction include: passing the rope back through the biner that connects the rap device to the harness (or a separate biner connected to the same point on the harness), running the rope through a carabiner on the brakehand side leg loop of the harness, etc. etc. etc.

There's also this Rappel Z Method (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=722)

The device you use makes a big difference. I recommend the Petzl Pirana, especially for beginners. It's easy to vary the friction when rigging, and easy to add friction mid-rappel.

[kambinggurun]

if i were to buy a static rope with floating property, what kind of material should i consider??

is it nylon or polyproplene or HMPE or Aramid?

[rcwild]

if i were to buy a static rope with floating property, what kind of material should i consider??

is it nylon or polyproplene or HMPE or Aramid?


You are unlikely to find a rope suitable for rappelling that actually floats. Polypropylene and Spectra/Dyneema both float, but have other properties (i.e. low melting point) that make them unsuitable to be used alone in a rappelling rope. River rescue rope is made with these fibers and does float, but should not be used for rappelling.

Specialty canyoning ropes tend to use one fiber for the core and another for the sheath. The core may be made from a fiber that floats, but the sheath fiber (designed primarily for abrasion resistance) does not. You end up with a rope that does not float, but sinks slower than a non-canyoning rope.

There are canyoning ropes with polypropylene cores and polyester sheaths (European) and Spectra/Dyneema cores and polyester sheaths (e.g. Canyon Pro). I've owned a few with polypropylene cores. They're okay for canyons with lots of water and little abrasive rock. Not durable enough for dry canyons with abrasive rock like sandstone.

[Peter Springs]

Hey all-

I am in need of a 300 ft rope to do Heaps. Does anyone know if they can be rented? If not, I may end up splitting the bill to buy one with a friend and cut my half up afterwards for a short rope... in that case, does anyone have any recommendations for rope to buy "off the spool" and where to order it from to get it by July?

Thanks guys,
Peter

[sonnylawrence]

I suggest 300 feet of 8 mm Imlay Canyon rope from Tom Jones.

[hank_moon]

I suggest 300 feet of 8 mm Imlay Canyon rope from Tom Jones.

True that.

[Peter Springs]

hmmm...

I have a 9mm polyester 70m one...

The problem that I have with the Imlay Gear rope is tying an overhand (EDK)... the stiff polyester doesn't allow the knot to dress tight enough for me to trust (key to an EDK not failing), so I use double fisherman's knots instead. But I'd rather use an EDK instead to avoid rope hang ups. Any other ropes that you'd recommend as an alternative that might be less rigid that you'd put in second place? Unless you have a way of dressing an EDK that makes you trust it?

Thanks,
Peter

[zioncanyonrunner]

I have used Bluewater's Canyon Pro for the last several years including the almost 300' rap. in Englestead. If you are traveling through Cedar City try the Mountain Shop. They usually have spooled rope and are very knowledgable about the area's canyons, talk to Ben. 435-586-7177 (shop phone number). What is the date of your trip, I may be up in the area at that time and I could bring my rope.

[rcwild]

I'm not a fan of Imlay ropes (sorry Tom). I've owned two. Neither lasted very long and are now only used for rigging practice. Not a fan of white ropes in general. Prefer a colored sheath so damage is easier to spot – i.e. white core easy to see through damaged orange sheath; difficult to see through damaged white sheath.

Bright colored ropes also easier to find if dropped in a pool. And they show up better in photos.

CAUTION: Advice about rope diameter on long rappels should start with "It depends ..." I don't think beginners should use skinny ropes on long rappels. Too easy to lose control, especially part way down where the advantage of rope weight below the brake hand is lost.

[jsostheim]

Goddamn Rich, again with the "it depends...". How come we can't ever get a straight answer from you?! :D :rolleyes:

[Peter Springs]

Hey Zioncanyonrunner and others,

Thanks for the offer and the replies. We'll probably be hitting Heaps either the 3rd or 4th weekend of July. I'll give that place you suggested a call.

On a final note-
1. Agree with Rich on the White rope sheath/core thought. I've had several core shots on climbing rope and it is very helpful to have different colors. Have seen several white static ropes that have also needed to be retired [friend's], but it is harder to see it.

2. Does anyone who use the Imlay gear ropes use the EDK knot? Maybe I'm just have trouble dressing them, but even with other static rope brands, I haven't had the issue of getting the overhand/EDK knot nice and snug.

Peter

edit: meant July... June will be some other canyons... maybe Imlay again or the Squeeze in the swell! mmm...

[Canyonbug]

I can also get rope on a spool if you need special cuts. Let me know in advance so that we can get it ordered and off to you.

jhillhouse@northwashoutfitters.com

[ratagonia]

hmmm...

I have a 9mm polyester 70m one...

The problem that I have with the Imlay Gear rope is tying an overhand (EDK)... the stiff polyester doesn't allow the knot to dress tight enough for me to trust (key to an EDK not failing), so I use double fisherman's knots instead. But I'd rather use an EDK instead to avoid rope hang ups. Any other ropes that you'd recommend as an alternative that might be less rigid that you'd put in second place? Unless you have a way of dressing an EDK that makes you trust it?

Thanks,
Peter

Hmmm, Interesting.

The ropes start out a bit stiff, but soften up to a nice knottability after a little bit of use. In general, may I recommend a double EDK (ie, two EDKs tied in series). The second EDK prevents the first from rolling, locking it onto the rope.

You are smart to not use a knot that you do not trust.

IF you are carrying the rope through the canyon, then an 8mm might be the ticket. If you have the carrying capacity, the 9mm gives a warmer, fuzzier feeling on that big long rappel. Stack it straight into a drybag after the entry rappels for best carrying through the canyon.

IF you are stashing the rope in the woods and doing a lower-and-rappel (or a knot-pass), then the 9mm makes more sense.

Tom Jones
Imlay Canyon Gear

[hank_moon]

I'm not a fan of Imlay ropes (sorry Tom). I've owned two. Neither lasted very long and are now only used for rigging practice.

...whereas I'm still using *prototype* 8 mm Imlay rope from 2003. An "insider" like Rich is probably used to using donated or discount Canyon Pro-type ropes with expensive fibers (Dyneema, Aramids, etc.) that can take a lot more abuse than mere polyester. And...maybe his rope handling technique has been spoiled by these tough ropes? :p

[rcwild]

Actually, Hank, the ropes I use most often are polyester. I reserve my Canyon Pro for the use it was originally intended – a backup rescue rope.

All of my ropes last quite a long time considering what I put them through, especially with students. Work from a bag, keep them out of the sand, use edge protection, etc. It was disippointing to have two DONATED Imlay ropes wear out so quickly.

[bj]

My experience with Imlay ropes is the same as Hanks and the exact opposite of Richs. I’ll have to admit I didn’t like the hand of the Imlay rope at first, but later I fell in love with it because it’s practically indestructible. After I give my two year old Imlay 9mil a bath it almost looks like new.

Here are two good reasons to buy the Imlay rope: 1) It’s the best canyoneering rope available at a very reasonable price. 2) Tom Jones and his company, Imlay Canyon Gear (www.canyoneeringusa.com) loyally support the canyoneering community with both his money and his time.

[hank_moon]

Actually, Hank, the ropes I use most often are polyester. I reserve my Canyon Pro for the use it was originally intended – a backup rescue rope.

What 100% polyester rope are you using? I know PMI and Sterling make them - please enlighten. Also, what diameter Imlay ropes wore out so quickly? Same diameter as the 100% poly ropes you normally use?

[rcwild]

I agree – all things being equal, we should all support those who support the canyoneering community – Imlay, BlueWater, Petzl, Mountain Shop, etc.

People make value judgements based on many variables. If product A and product B are of equal quality and price, I'll buy B if it benefits someone I know or feel gratitude toward. I may still buy B if it is of slightly lower quality or slightly higher price.

In my position I think people expect my objective opinion. When I have no reservations about a product I do not hesitate to recommend it. When I do have reservations, I voice them. I don't like white ropes. People who read my previous post know why. They are now in a position to make a better buying decision, which might be to buy a white rope anyway. That's cool.

[Peter Springs]

Tom-
Hey, thanks for your input. Good ideas about carrying and the back up knot (though if I don't trust the first knot... should I trust the back up one? And does a back-up one mitigate the "less likely to be stuck" feature of tying the EDK in the first place?) Anyway, thanks for your help; love your website and appreciate all of your input on this site; your experience and advice is always appreciated.
Peter

[Paul Nelson]

I agree – all things being equal, we should all support those who support the canyoneering community – Imlay, BlueWater, Petzl, Mountain Shop, etc.


Sterling rope also supports the canyoneering, and the caving, community. Sterling makes 100% polyester (HTP) ropes and they also make a rope for canyoneering called the Canyontech with nylon core and technora sheath. I have used their products for caving and canyoneering and I like them. Sterling's HTP is not as stiff at the Imlay product, and it comes in colors other than white.

[Peter Springs]

Paul-
Hey, I was talking with the guys at IME (salt lake) and they showed me that sterling one... looks like an abrasion resister for sure... some sort of kevlar-type weave to it.... it looks awesome and feels very workable. Thanks for that note.

[hank_moon]

Sterling rope also supports the canyoneering, and the caving, community.

What does Sterling, Petzl, Bluewater, etc. do for the canyoneering community? I haven't heard of anything on the order of Tom's guidebook, free online canyoneering resource, free Festivals, etc. Are you saying that offering products for sale is support?

[hank_moon]

BUMP


What 100% polyester rope are you using? I know PMI and Sterling make them - please enlighten. Also, what diameter Imlay ropes wore out so quickly? Same diameter as the 100% poly ropes you normally use?

Are you using Sterling HTP? Top secret proto? :D

[rcwild]

Imlay, Sterling, BlueWater, Petzl ... all in business to make money selling gear to us rubes. Level of PR activity varies.

[hank_moon]

Imlay, Sterling, BlueWater, Petzl ... all in business to make money selling gear to us rubes. Level of PR activity varies.

Why you do Paul's question while evading the other? What you hiding, carrottop? :D

[rcwild]

What does Sterling, Petzl, Bluewater, etc. do for the canyoneering community? I haven't heard of anything on the order of Tom's guidebook, free online canyoneering resource, free Festivals, etc. Are you saying that offering products for sale is support?

Responded to you, Hanky Poo.

[Paul Nelson]

What does Sterling, Petzl, Bluewater, etc. do for the canyoneering community? I haven't heard of anything on the order of Tom's guidebook, free online canyoneering resource, free Festivals, etc. Are you saying that offering products for sale is support?

Sterling Rope on several occasions has provided ropes for caving expeditions over the last several years and donated a rope for a prize for the Cave Research Foundation. I think Sterling may have donated a rope for fund raiser for former ACA San Gabriel Chapter. Sterling has also sent me a sample of the Canyontech rope to evaluate.

I agree that Tom Jones of Imlay gear has provided generous support to the Canyoneering community, which includes the great information on his canyoneeringusa website and the donation of gear to the prior ACA chapter’s fundraisers. I have purchased Imlay rope, which I like a lot, and three rope bags. I will also buy one of his new canyoneering packs.

[hank_moon]

Sterling Rope on several occasions has provided ropes for caving expeditions over the last several years and donated a rope for a prize for the Cave Research Foundation. I think Sterling may have donated a rope for fund raiser for former ACA San Gabriel Chapter. Sterling has also sent me a sample of the Canyontech rope to evaluate.

hey, that's good to know...thanks for the info.

[hank_moon]

Responded to you, Hanky Poo.


OK, let's start fresh with a new question:

Previously in this thread, you mentioned being disappointed with two Imlay ropes (rapid wearout). But...we don't know what diameter they are. Please tell us this, and which polyester ropes (brand, model, diameter) you have been using that wear better than Imlay ropes of the same diameter and materials. It's useful to know these details so costs and such can be compared.

[Paul Nelson]

OK, let's start fresh with a new question:

Previously in this thread, you mentioned being disappointed with two Imlay ropes (rapid wearout). But...we don't know what diameter they are. Please tell us this, and which polyester ropes (brand, model, diameter) you have been using that wear better than Imlay ropes of the same diameter and materials. It's useful to know these details so costs and such can be compared.

This discussion has gotten of topic for a 300 foot rope for heaps! Time for the administrator to chop part of this thread and move it to Rope Considerations!.

While knowing the size, brand, and type (polyester, nylon, etc) is helpful comparing the durability of rope, adhoc observations must be interpreted with some caution. How you use your rope is a big factor.

I don't use my 8mm Imlay if there are newbies or I suspect sharp fractured granite. I also tend to adjust the rope frequently to move the rub point and if I see a sharp edge, I use padding. Selecting the right rope for the right situation is important. For example, my standard caving rope is 10mm polyester. If I am flying to a far away cave or it is a long trek through the cave then I use 9 mm to save weight and rig European (rebelay & deviations) style to avoid rub points. I would not use my 8mm for caving. My ropes last a long time because I take care of them. However, some people seem to go through ropes very quickly.

PMI maxi-wear is a very durable rope, but it is an extremely stiff rope. I like the 8mm Imlay, but it is not my standard rope that I take canyoneering. For most trips I use my Sterling 9mm HTP and I am starting to use the Sterling CanyonTech.

[hank_moon]

OK, let's start fresh with a new question:

Previously in this thread, Rich mentioned being disappointed with two Imlay ropes (rapid wearout). But...we don't know what diameter they are. Rich, please tell us the details, and which polyester ropes (brand, model, diameter) you have been using that wear better than Imlay ropes of the same diameter and materials. It's useful to know these details so costs and such can be compared.

Just a reminder (bump)

[Peter Springs]

Just a reminder (bump)

Heh, this is sort of funny. I actually like the Imlay Gear rope. Mine is a 9mm and I think it's beefy and handles wear really well... which is the trade off I get for the stiffness, I think. It's not as obvious where the rope is wearing, as Rich pointed out, because it's white on white... but it's not the biggest concern since I still have eyes :D

I am sort of curious as to the answer to Hank's questions too; sort of a good way to do a "rope durability" comparision from different people's anecdotes about rope.

[jsostheim]

Since we're talking about rope durability and no longer 300ft of rope for heaps (not that I want to hack the OP for the second time, but what is heaps?)
I'm using sterling HTP in 9mm. I'm hoping the sterling canyon does better cause I've core shot the HTP in several places bringing a party of three down a canyon. They were swaying side to side to avoid holes and water and so the ropes life ended.
I'm really going to have to look into edge protection seriously cause I can't afford to loose rope at this rate. When it's just me and the other guides going for fun, the HTP does quite well.

[jsostheim]

Anyone know how much sterling canyon tech goes for per foot or per meter in the US? I would like to do a price comparison cause I have a feeling I'm being raped here.

[Peter Springs]

Heh, no hijacking offense taken. Heaps is a canyon in Zion NP with a very long rappel at the end of it.

PS

[rambler-joe]

I am trying to find authoritative figures for strength loss in nylon 66 static ropes when wet.:confused: They are readily available for dynamic ropes but seem to be a well kept secret for static.:mad:
Rambler-joe

[rcwild]

I have the results of some tests conducted by Beal, but dynamic. Definite strength reduction when nylon is wet. Have to assume that same will be true with static ropes, but don't know if to the same degree. Will wet nylon static lose more/less strength than wet nylon dynamic?

[bst]

I have the results of some tests conducted by Beal, but dynamic. Definite strength reduction when nylon is wet. Have to assume that same will be true with static ropes, but don't know if to the same degree. Will wet nylon static lose more/less strength than wet nylon dynamic?

Since it is dynamic rope, are we talking about reduction on damping (energy absorping capacity on dynamic load) or are we talking about reduction in ultimate strength? I can picture wet ropes have less damping (which will transfer more of the fall energy to the user and anchor) but I can't picture wet ropes have a significant reduction ultimate strength.

Rich, can you clarify please?

[hank_moon]

I can picture wet ropes have less damping (which will transfer more of the fall energy to the user and anchor) but I can't picture wet ropes have a significant reduction ultimate strength.

A good intro to the topic:

http://tinyurl.com/yolbur

[rambler-joe]

A good intro to the topic:

http://tinyurl.com/yolbur
The theory is that the crystalline structure of the nylon 66 macromolecule is weakened when wet. This has a dramatic effect in dynamic ropes. The question is, does the effect show up in static ropes, and to what degree, or is it only the shock absorbing ability of the dynamic rope that is affected?
Rambler-joe

[sonnylawrence]

The question is, does the effect show up in static ropes, and to what degree, or is it only the shock absorbing ability of the dynamic rope that is affected?
Rambler-joe
We are taught in search and rescue that low stretch nylon ropes are weakened by about 14%. I do not have a reference.
Anyone willing to send me 20-ish feet of new rope to test? I would soak 1/3 for a week, 1/3 just a few minutes and 1/3 dry. I have plenty of old rope. Testing that would not be so interesting.

[hank_moon]

The theory is that the crystalline structure of the nylon 66 macromolecule is weakened when wet. This has a dramatic effect in dynamic ropes. The question is, does the effect show up in static ropes, and to what degree, or is it only the shock absorbing ability of the dynamic rope that is affected?
Rambler-joe

No es theory...hint: the common thread is nylon.

Rich (AFAIK) ain't a chemist. A little Google's all you need..."authority" unnecessary and limiting - find your own answers...satisfy yourself. Your safety is your responsibility.

Here’s a link to a paper some BYU students wrote about effects that dirt, water, abrasion, and fatigue have on ropes. http://www.et.byu.edu/groups/mfg340/qualityreports/nylon.htm They found that water by far affected the strength of the rope the most, followed by dirt. They explain by saying, “Moisture content is known to affect the mechanical properties of the hydrogen bonds in nylon 6. This is due to the polarity and hydrogen bonding of the amide groups in nylon. Water absorption results in dimensional changes and strength loss.�

[rambler-joe]

A little Google's all you need...find your own answers...satisfy yourself.
So far I've done lots of googles and can only come up with dynamic rope results, but will check out the site you listed, and thanks for that.
Turns out Ive been there already and again the test is for dynamic rope and seem to concentrate on the ability of the rope to sustain a fall


Your safety is your responsibility.
I couldn't agree more, that's why I'm searching for this info. I don't expect, or want, others to do the work for me, I'm just trying to draw on the combined expertise of the group.
Rambler-joe

[hank_moon]

So far I've done lots of googles and can only come up with dynamic rope results, but will check out the site you listed, and thanks for that.

Dude, you're ignorin' the hint! :mad:

[rambler-joe]

Dude, you're ignorin' the hint! :mad:
Au contrair, my theory is if it affects dynamic rope it should affect static rope in the same way. That is a fairly significant loss of strength in either rope because they're both made with the same material. My problem is getting others to believe this without some test results, on static rope, that can be relied on as accurate. Over to you.:D
rambler-joe

[rcwild]

Rich (AFAIK) ain't a chemist.

Not since the 70s. :cool:

[ratagonia]

Here’s a link to a paper some BYU students wrote about effects that dirt, water, abrasion, and fatigue have on ropes. http://www.et.byu.edu/groups/mfg340/qualityreports/nylon.htm They found that water by far affected the strength of the rope the most, followed by dirt. They explain by saying, “Moisture content is known to affect the mechanical properties of the hydrogen bonds in nylon 6. This is due to the polarity and hydrogen bonding of the amide groups in nylon. Water absorption results in dimensional changes and strength loss.�

A study of some value, but... Ropes are made of Nylon 6-6, which is not the same as Nylon 6 (hence, it has a different name). Nylon 6-6 is sometimes called high-tenacity nylon, and will have a different reaction to water than Nylon 6, though it is likely quite similar.

Accessory cord and climbing rope are very different. Superficially similar, but the details count. For instance, the accessory cord is probably made from Nylon 6.

Careful what you read on the web - a lot of its not true.

Tom

[ratagonia]

We are taught in search and rescue that low stretch nylon ropes are weakened by about 14%. I do not have a reference.
Anyone willing to send me 20-ish feet of new rope to test? I would soak 1/3 for a week, 1/3 just a few minutes and 1/3 dry. I have plenty of old rope. Testing that would not be so interesting.

Will try to get out some samples today, but they will be polyester.

Tom

[hank_moon]

Rich is back! Bump! :)


What 100% polyester rope are you using? I know PMI and Sterling make them - please enlighten. Also, what diameter Imlay ropes wore out so quickly? Same diameter as the 100% poly ropes you normally use?

[hank_moon]

Careful what you read on the web - a lot of its not true.

...except for wikipedia. :D

[rcwild]

Rich is back!

... and continuing to ignore you. :p

[ratagonia]

... and continuing to ignore you. :p

good to see that all is right with the world.

Tom

[hank_moon]

... and continuing to ignore you. :p

Yes, Rich...it is obvious that you are ignoring the question. Others are interested in the answer, too - it's not just me. If you have a problem with me, perhaps you'd be willing to tell me about it offline or over the phone.

In the meantime, for the sake of many values you profess to uphold, please take a couple deep breaths and just post it!

[MIQ_WRX]

Here's a link to the Sterling site http://www.sterlingrope.com/2005/climbing_products3.asp?pmid=14

Scroll down to canyon ropes.

Don't think you can dye aramid so the sheath has a tan color with green tracers.

-MIQ

[rcwild]

Yes, Rich...it is obvious that you are ignoring the question. Others are interested in the answer, too - it's not just me. If you have a problem with me, perhaps you'd be willing to tell me about it offline or over the phone.

In the meantime, for the sake of many values you profess to uphold, please take a couple deep breaths and just post it!

Nothing personal at all, Hank. I simply have nothing else to say on the subject. I voiced my opinion and moved on. Not interested in engaging in an argument.

[hank_moon]

Nothing personal at all, Hank. I simply have nothing else to say on the subject. I voiced my opinion and moved on. Not interested in engaging in an argument.

Rich, you won't get any argument from me...just want to know the details on the fast-wearing Imlay ropes. I swar.

[rcwild]

Had a short exchange with Sonny the other day along these lines ...

Most people don't buy very many ropes in their lifetimes. We often develop an opinion based on a single experience. "I tried that rope once and it was two stiff." "A friend owned one of those ropes and it got a core shot in the first canyon." Etc. Ropes are a hefty investment, so we may not want to take a risk buying that same "problem" rope again. Perhaps if we took that risk we'd find out that the problem was situational (perhaps even our own fault) and that rope might become our new favorite if we'd just give it a chance.

I haven't been avoiding your questions because of anything against you, Hank. You should know better my friend. I've been avoiding it because I don't want to have an overly negative influence on anyone's decision. Stated my opinion based on my limited experience with just two ropes. Others who have used them more than me have positive opinions. I'm not a fan of white sheaths. Others may love them. That's okay. I won't be offended if people consider my limited experience and decide to follow someone else's advice and try them.

If enough people continue to praise them, I'll certainly be willing to accept a few more freebies and give them another chance. ;)

[sonnylawrence]

Will try to get out some samples today, but they will be polyester.

Tom

I will be glad to use polyester. From my understanding, water does not weaken it. Its new nylon rope I was hoping for.

[sonnylawrence]

Had a short exchange with Sonny the other day along these lines ...


This discussion involved opinions about evaluating damaged ropes. For example, Rich points out that with a colored sheath, it is easier to see a core shot. That is from a distance. However at some point a person needs to "examine" his/her rope. There have been many times I checked my rope with my eyes closed. I feel every inch of it with both hands. This has been particularly useful with dynamic ropes. A couple times I retired a rope because I found a section, by feel, that was much different than the rest of the rope. It was kind of squishy. The sheath was intact. With hindsight, I wish I had access to a machine to break them. It would have been interesting to determine if I had found a true weakness in the rope or not.

[Paul Nelson]

I haven't been avoiding your questions because of anything against you, Hank. You should know better my friend. I've been avoiding it because I don't want to have an overly negative influence on anyone's decision. Stated my opinion based on my limited experience with just two ropes. Others who have used them more than me have positive opinions. I'm not a fan of white sheaths. Others may love them. That's okay. I won't be offended if people consider my limited experience and decide to follow someone else's advice and try them.

If enough people continue to praise them, I'll certainly be willing to accept a few more freebies and give them another chance. ;)

As I mentioned in an earlier post (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showpost.php?p=7578&postcount=56) anecdotal observations about the durability of rope must be viewed with caution because how the rope is used is very important in how long it will last. To say rope A did not last very long does not imply rope B would be better because rope B was never subjected to the exact same conditions. I support Rich’s resistance to make such statements because it could unfairly impact those manufactures.

Any comparisons between rope manufactures must be performed under controlled conditions so each sample is subjected to the same conditions.

My experience with the Imlay rope has been that they seem to be a tough wearing rope. While Imlay is stiffer than Sterling’s polyester (HTP), they are not as stiff as PMI maxi-wear which I find is difficult to tie and set knots.

[hank_moon]

As I mentioned in an earlier post (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showpost.php?p=7578&postcount=56) anecdotal observations about the durability of rope must be viewed with caution because how the rope is used is very important in how long it will last. To say rope A did not last very long does not imply rope B would be better because rope B was never subjected to the exact same conditions. I support Rich’s resistance to make such statements because it could unfairly impact those manufactures.

But...Rich already made the kind of statement you profess to resist. Now that it's "out there," it's a fair question to ask precisely what rope(s) he was talking about, "anecdotal...caution" notwithstanding. Stop trying to cover for Rich - he is a big boy. :)

Equally fair would be for Rich to simply retract the statement. Right now it's a hangnail.

[Paul Nelson]

This was posted on another thread of stopper knot,
http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1645&page=2
but it belongs here.



I wish I knew exactly what type of rope it was. The problem is, we didn't receive the rope with any type of paperwork... However, when my husband returned it, they again stated it was static so I'm inclined to believe them. However, I know what I felt and it didn't seem right at all. I've used plenty of 9mm to 11mm static and dynamic ropes (don't think I've ever used a "low stretch" rope) but I've never felt anything like this. However, aside from the previous rope, I have never used a 8mm rope period, so I'm not quite sure what to expect.

We purchased the rope from the REI store, so they may very well stock 8mm static ropes that aren't advertised on the website. this might be a shot in the dark - but i do remember it being a purple rope! LOL (i'm a pharmacist and i HATE when people come up to me and say "do you know that little white pill i take - it's round"). i feel like i'm doing that - you know that purple rope - it's 8mm?

anyway, i'd like to try another 8mm rope at some point in the future just for comparison. i don't want to totally dismiss them yet, but i'm not a huge fan thus far.

larissa


Hmm…purple 8mm, my guess is what you bought was 8mm accessory cord, and that stuff can be quite stretchy.

Most dynamic rope comes in cut lengths and packaged with a label. However, stores such as REI order static rope and cord in spools and cut to requested length. Thus an unknowledgeable clerk assumes cord and rope is the same thing, but they are not as the sheath on a rope is thicker and tighter. Since 8mm rope was not on the REI website, I doubt your local REI store would stock 8mm rope as it is a specialty item and they don’t something that will sit on the shelf for a long time.

As for selecting 8mm or 9mm rope, go with 9mm as your standard rope since as it is about 26% thicker it will be more versatile and last longer. I use my 100 foot 8mm as an emergency back-up rope which almost never leaves my pack. I use my 200 foot 8mm as the back-up rope and which will be used as the pull side on a 200 foot abseil or when I really need to reduce weight/space on a long canyon trip. However, the group’s skill and rock conditions need to allow for 8mm; if the group has a newbie or I suspect harsh rock conditions, then I will take the 9mm.

[rambler-joe]

I have just received the following reply from Blue Water, via their Aussie affiliate. I have problems with a few of the statements made and have asked for more info. I enclose this FYI.


Hi John,
Your enquiry was forwarded to me from Blue Water in the USA. The answer is very simple, there is no relevant reduction in the strength of either a static or dynamic polyamide rope as a result of it being wet. With natural fibre ropes the strength reduction can be very substantial and should be assumed to be at least 50%. You should note that a rope behaves in a different manner to its constituent fibre.

Apart from serious abrasion or a knife, the main way that the strength of your rope is reduced in use is by the presence of a knot. It is a safe bet to assume that the knot will reduce the strength of the rope by up to 33%. Knots in kernmantle construction polyamide ropes fail at the point of maximum compression due to heat generated by friction. As a consequence a wet rope will have a higher knotted strength than a dry rope.

With a dynamic rope the presence of water increases the energy absorption capacity of the rope as some of the heat generated by the friction, as the rope extends under a shock load, is dissipated to the water.

In both static and dynamic ropes, water acts as a lubricant, so the wet rope will be more slick through descenders and belay devices. It may also stretch slightly more when wet, but will shrink when it dries (unless dry treated). Pre wetting a static rope and thus shrinking it slightly tends to tighten the sheath and improve abrasion resistance at a slight cost to ease of handling.

If you need further information feel free to contact me.

Philip TOOMER

[sonnylawrence]

Some of the messages posted in this thread were split off from another thread titled Double T Fisherman & Avoiding Stuck Knot (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1682) ... Moderator




And realize that with a simple pulley mechanism--using a good,
real pulley, or improvising with a 'biner--, you have the means
to put well more than your body weight upon such knots in
doing some Check-this-out-in-safety-of-home testing. These
are the rap forces of concern to you for these knots.
At some point this discussion goes beyond a simple rappel with the usual forces of at most one person's weight on the rope. So for example, the system may be rigged with a counter balance in order to keep the knot below a certain point a distance from the anchor. A person on the bottom is participating as part of the anchor system. If the rapide acted as a perfect pulley, that would double the forces on the anchor.

Another system may be set up as a guided rappel. Roughly the anchor will see three times the person's weight. That is when the system is set up properly. The possibility exists to have FAR greater forces than that if done wrong. Those forces have to be considered with regards to the strength of the anchor and the subsequent ability to untie the joined ropes.

[ratagonia]

According to most sources the OOB is much weaker than the grapevine/double fisherman's knot, but does this really matter when we are talking about using it for rappel lines (50% strength of a 6,000 line vs 70%)? I could see being concerned if the potential existed to take a lead fall on it. As far as capsizing is concerned, could this really happen if the knot is properly dressed and set before committing to the rappel?

Marc

Not to pick on Marc, but some numbers have been thrown around that just plain are not true.

Q1: How much force do rappels generate?

A1: answer - 600 lbs commonly, 1000 lbs uncommonly.

Q2: How strong are ropes?

A2: My Imlay 8mm rope is only rated at 3900 lbs WHEN NEW. So don't start with the assumption that the rope is worth 6000 lbs.

Q3: something about "but the load is spread over two rope..."

A3: Only when using double rope technique, but many of us here rap single line very commonly.

Tom

[Marc McDonald]

Not to pick on Marc, but some numbers have been thrown around that just plain are not true.

Q1: How much force do rappels generate?

A1: answer - 600 lbs commonly, 1000 lbs uncommonly.

Q2: How strong are ropes?

A2: My Imlay 8mm rope is only rated at 3900 lbs WHEN NEW. So don't start with the assumption that the rope is worth 6000 lbs.

Tom

Tom,

The spec sheet that came with my Bluewater Canyon Pro says it's rated at 6,000 pounds. Is this not true?

You are of course correct in pointing out that rappels can vary in force depending on technique. I was making the assumption we aren't rappelling like Marines, so 600 pounds seems a little high to me especially if the rappel isn't free hanging. Assuming the rappel generates 600 pounds of force, if the knot fails at 1,500 pounds that's still a safety factor of 2.5x. Right?

Marc

[ratagonia]

Tom,

The spec sheet that came with my Bluewater Canyon Pro says it's rated at 6,000 pounds. Is this not true?

You are of course correct in pointing out that rappels can vary in force depending on technique. I was making the assumption we aren't rappelling like Marines, so 600 pounds seems a little high to me especially if the rappel isn't free hanging. Assuming the rappel generates 600 pounds of force, if the knot fails at 1,500 pounds that's still a safety factor of 2.5x. Right?

Marc

The Bluewater website http://www.bluewaterropes.com says 5000 lbf for both the Canyon Pro and the Canyon Pro DS. Your hangtag may disagree with the website. When talking about "things" on a public forum, it seems wiser to talk about the weakest rope in common usage (the bottom end limit) rather than the rope end limit.

600 lbs SHOULD seem a little high. I base this number on tests performed by Chris Harmston on the max force experienced by Ice Axe Leashes when the iceclimber slips and shockloads it. I consider this a reasonable model of the kind of forces generated by slips and falls when rappelling, and represents an upper bound, for a large rappeller with a pack on. I have canyoned with some hefty fellers, who with a pack, could weigh 300 lbs. 2X that is 600 lbs. A likely limit on what rappellers generate unless they do something really stupid.

The terms Safe Working Load (SWL), WLL (Working Load Limit) and Safety Factor. For Industrial applications, using steel cables to lift things, testing and experience indicate that the loads on the steel cable tend to be less than 5X the weight of the object. This accounts for the jerking and odd loads that occur on the system. Thus, if the 'rope' had a breaking strength of 10,000 lbs, then the SWL for that would be 2000 lbs.

Therefore, I think it would be more true, given a knot strength of 1500 lbs, that the Safe Working Load would be 1500/5 or 300 lbs - about that of my friend loaded down for a 3-day trip.

However, does the SWL system also account for the knot? in which case, my 3900 lb rope would have an SWL of 3900/5 or 780 lbs - more than two of my hefty friends rapping in tandem on the same strand (not recommended).

Or Safety Factor? 2.5? 5? 13? Hard to say.

Just goes to show, in my book, that the SWL, WLL, SF system is not easy to use or interpret. If you are hauling buckets or tar up to a roof, perhaps it is a good system. If you are evaluating the strengths and weaknesses of canyoneering systems - not so good.

My experience with my Imlay Canyon Ropes is that people in the hefty category (say upward of 200 lbs) should not use the 8mm rope much because they tear it up too fast. Their extra weight induces more cutting action at edge points, and core shots are produced faster - leading to decreased lifetime of the rope. Hefties should use a thicker rope such as the Imlay 9mm rope.

Tom

[sonnylawrence]

A few weeks ago we had a NOT hefty 110 pound person rappel over a 90 degree edge. The rope was connected via a dynamometer to the anchor. She rappeled stiff legged with waiting arms to catch her as she rolled over the edge. At the peak, she loaded the anchor with around 580 pounds. She did not slip (such as a person on rappel falling some distance while off to the side). This has to do with the priniciple of stringing a line between two attachment points. If the line is taught and a load is applied perpendicularly at the middle, it becomes a tremendous force multiplier. Some people call this vectoring. In our case, the rappeller functions similar to one of these two attachment points. The anchor is the second.

So I think there are two main scenarios in rappeling wherein the loads are greater than just the person's body weight. One, the most important, is when the person first starts. As described above, there are many times the body weight affecting the system. The other is if the person bounces around while on rappel. From other tests it appears the forces are double to triple the body weight. Depending on the shape and type of rock, the anchor may not see those loads but the rope does.

[Marc McDonald]

Tom,

That all makes sense to me. Without destructive testing on exactly the same equipment under exactly the same setup and conditions, we can only estimate the true strength of any rope system. One thing is for sure, the system is only as strong as its weakest link. If we consider the anchor and metal interfaces to all be stronger than your 3,900# rope (I know that's not a safe assumption, but if we've done our job of rigging the system properly it should be true) then that leaves the soft goods (harness, slings and rope) as the weakest links. When you attempt to calculate it mathematically, the knotted rope is usually what most of us would identify as the weakest part of the system (once again assuming good anchors and proper rigging). After years of reviewing accident reports (most related to mountaineering and rock climbing rather than canyoneering) my observation is that the majority of rappelling accidents and fatalities have occurred, not because of direct rope failure, but rather due to errors in system setup or use. It also appears to be more likely the knot will fail than the rope based purely on anecdotal evidence.

I'm back to the question I started with. How do we know when a knot is safe enough to use and worry about the other factors which make it a better (or worse) choice for the given application? In the past I've based that decision primarily on the history of the knot. Has it been used long enough for the particular application to become accepted as a standard? Are experienced climbers willing to recommend it to their partners and students? Experience, however, isn't a guarantee of performance, so I have to believe there's a better way. It's a knotty question how best to decide what to trust our butts to.

Marc

[dcampen]

The spec sheet that came with my Bluewater Canyon Pro says it's rated at 6,000 pounds. Is this not true?
Not according to the BluewaterRopes web site. Perhaps you are confusing the Canyon Pro and the Canyon DS.

[Marc McDonald]

Tom also pointed out the website has different information. The hang tag that came on the rope says 6,000 pounds. I checked it again last night to be sure. I never bothered to look at the website. I just assumed the information hanging on the rope was correct. If I have time this weekend I will post a scan of the hang tag. It's a little scary that the information on the website and the information on the rope itself differ by 1,000 pounds!

Marc

[ratagonia]

Having worked in a climbing company, it does not surprise me that the hangtag and website disagree.

It should also be noted that the Canyon Pro rope changed in its career. It was originally made with Spectra as the core material, but Spectra became a strategic material. That version had a strength of 5000 lbs.

Scott tried to wait it out, and the Pro was not available for about a year; then he switched the core to Dyneema (which because it is made in Europe is not a strategic material), and the slight change in characteristics gave it a significantly higher strength.

Has the website caught up? Perhaps not.

Tom

[SirKnotcelot]

Tom's remarks on SWL, WLL, & SF hit the mark. In many cases, the
WLL/SWL seem to want no load greater, and so advise that knots,
"shock" loads, etc., be considered in setting the load--not that the
load anticipate/cover them. Whereas with those who use "Safety
Factor", I sense that IT is partly intended to accommodate any
such surges of load or diminutions of strength. YMMV.

Sonny, I'm having trouble casting your flyweight rappeller situation
as a perpendicular load on a taut line.
Rather, I'll surmise the straight-leggedness and mid-body attachment
brought leverage to play. But, wow, 5 times her full weight?!!


It should also be noted that the Canyon Pro rope changed in its career. It was originally made with Spectra as the core material, but Spectra became a strategic material. That version had a strength of 5000 lbs.

Scott tried to wait it out, and the Pro was not available for about a year; then he switched the core to Dyneema (which because it is made in Europe is not a strategic material), and the slight change in characteristics gave it a significantly higher strength.
Interesting, but it runs afoul seemingly of ... :

DSM Dyneema
Production site
Visiting address
5900 NW Greenville Blvd. Greenville North Carolina 27834
... which I wish I'd realized last year, as I passed through there!
(Maybe the search for WMD in Iraq took resources away from finding Dyneema in USA? --or DSM didn't make the right bribes, er, campaign contributions.)

As for "2OOB" vs. OOB+Overhand stopper in 1 line only,
while I take the point about needing to distinguish Which end?,
ignorance of which end implies inability to apply the proper/best
dressing & setting of that knot--for Which End is entailed in that,
and should lead to the additional stopper. (Or, vice all that, to
the full turn at mainline entry point in making that Fig.9.)
As simple as the Overhand is, all this fine tuning can go in
one swell foop.

;)

[Marc McDonald]

Scott tried to wait it out, and the Pro was not available for about a year; then he switched the core to Dyneema (which because it is made in Europe is not a strategic material), and the slight change in characteristics gave it a significantly higher strength.

Has the website caught up? Perhaps not.

Tom

Tom's explanation seems reasonable to me. I didn't know there had been a materials change in the Canyon Pro. Mine was purchased in March of 2007, so depending on when the materials change was made, the hang tag may be correct. I know when there is a disagreement in strength numbers we should always default to the lower number, but even if this rope does have a 6,000# breaking strength, the other factors related to rope wear with heavy climbers may have an effect on its long-term strength and durability. I weigh about 200# fully loaded with a pack. Time will tell if I have the same wear issues with the Canyon Pro that Tom has noticed with his 8mm Imlay ropes.

I attempted a little vector analysis on the scenario of the 110# climber presenting a 600# load and had a hard time seeing it as well. The load presented to the anchor varies with the angle, but even with some unusual angles, I had a hard time coming up with more than 2X body weight. If the force was measured with a properly calibrated instrument, that's certainly definitive, but I still can't figure out how the force to the anchor could be five times the load weight without a dynamic component (bouncing or falling). Thanks to all for contributing to this discussion.

Marc

[SirKnotcelot]

Having worked in a climbing company, it does not surprise me that the hangtag and website disagree.

It should also be noted that the Canyon Pro rope changed in its career. It was originally made with Spectra as the core material, but Spectra became a strategic material. That version had a strength of 5000 lbs.

Scott tried to wait it out, and the Pro was not available for about a year; then he switched the core to Dyneema (which because it is made in Europe is not a strategic material), and the slight change in characteristics gave it a significantly higher strength.

Has the website caught up? Perhaps not.

Tom
Concerning the Bluewater information, we need to be attentive
to details, which turn up inconsistencies in Bluewater's site.

Marc, R U SURE that you have "Canyon PRO"? --WHAT DIAMETER?

Bluewater's site's information is confusing and I think wrong in
at least some respect:

1) Note that between the >>8.0mm<< C.Pro & C.Pro DS the only
stated difference is that the "DS" version has a hybrid PES/Technora
sheath; both have HMPE (Spectra? now Dyneema) cores. Oddly,
though, the on-site info gives the "DS" version a SWL of 333#
--100# (i.e., one keystroke typo?) less than the non-DS version!?
And, although the aramid-laced sheath adds a bit of weight to the
rope, IT is referred to as "extremely lightweight" whereas the
lighter C.Pro is merely "lightweight". The aramid gets credit for
cut resistance.

2) Moving up in size now to >>9.2mm<< Canyon [no modifiers]
rope, it is of a PA(nylon) core w/PES (polyester) sheath. It also
has a tensile strength of 5,000#, but like the C.Pro DS gets a
SWL of 333# (further suggesting the C.Pro's "433" is a typo).
And although a thicker rope of course than the 8.0mm ones,
marketing finds that it has an "excellent diameter-to-weight
ratio" !! brilliant.

3) Now we find something to connect w/Marc's "6,000#":
the >>9.2mm<< Canyon DS (no "Pro" here--but seems it
belongs) doesn't disclose the core material!? It's claim to
have been derived from the "Canyon" (no "Pro") suggests
that it has the same nylon core, and adds to that the hybrid
PES & Technora sheath. Interestingly, here, the sheath
"gives this skinny rope a whopping 6000# tensile strength."
(note no diff. in tensile between like-sheathed ProDS vs. Pro).
With this their largest/heaviest rope, they don't bother with
detail--no weight is given (which would help imply the
nature of core material).

I guess we might deduce that the elasticity of the 9.2mm
core enables the sheath to play more of a role in strength
than the staticness of an HMPE core--thinking that the sheath
has too much mechnical stretch to be much load-helping
at the point where the Dyneema is fully stressed?!

So, back to that hangtag, is it really a hybrid of the misc.
info above, or does it actually match #3's rope?

If indeed there is some big change in strength from the
C.Pro's 5_000 to 6_000, hmmm, that seems like a lot.
Spectra 900(?) vs. Dyneema SK75 or even SK78 could
be so much? I suppose.

-- SirKnotcelot

[Marc McDonald]

SirKnotcelot,

Hang tag says Canyon Pro. It also says Canyon Pro on the white rope marker at each end of the rope. It's an 8mm, 200' rope and it's orange. The hang tag also says it weighs 2.75 Lbs. per 100 feet. That makes it pretty light in my book, but I don't know if that qualifies it as "extremely lightweight". I can make a scan of the hang tag, but I fear if I get it high enough resolution to read, the file will be too large to post. I thought a 1,000# discrepancy in the strength rating was pretty alarming too, but if Tom is right and it's due to a materials change, I can see why they would publish the lower number. If it were my company and I had to make a change that big I would have given the replacement a new name/designation.

Marc

Marc

[SirKnotcelot]

Hang tag says Canyon Pro. It also says Canyon Pro on the white rope marker at each end of the rope. It's an 8mm, 200' rope and it's orange. The hang tag also says it weighs 2.75 Lbs. per 100 feet.
Okay, same weight as listed on-line; that for the "extremely" light
Pro DS is 2.9#/100' (yes, heavier).
I did a quick check of Samson Rope's Amsteel vs. Amsteel-Blue,
which is said by them to be "much stronger": at 1/4", which is
in the neighborhood of what a 5/16"(8mm) kernmantle's core
should be, their 12-stand ropes are resp. 7_400# vs. 8_600#
--a 1_200# difference. (I'll just guess that Amsteel is SK60
Dyneema. Btw, one of their apparent newest HMPE developments
is putting some greater friction into the fiber--"DPX". They also
have more strength-efficient designs, in large rope: 2" & some
450_000# tensile.)

:)

[rcwild]

From an email from BlueWater:

Spectra and Dyneema are both trade names for essentially the same material – Polyethylene. Performance Fibers (formerly part of Honeywell, formerly Allied-Signal, formerly Allied Chemical) produces Spectra. DSM produces Dyneema in the Netherlands and U.S. The original deal licensed Allied for maybe ten years or so for the American market so DSM stayed out.

Spectra is not available except for military end users. Weavers are getting it all to go into fabric for body armor and lightweight laminate armor panels for aircraft.

Dyneema is available and gives us better results: it gives us better strengths and runs better in the manufacturing process here.

We dropped the tensile rating because we prefer to list a more conservative rating. No construction changes, no material changes just lowered it to 333 lbf v. 400 lbf using the 15:1 NFPA safety margin.

[rcwild]

Actual strength and rated strength are not necessarily the same thing. Companies have different strategies regarding how they choose to report their tests. There may be two companies selling essentially the same rope – same diameter, same material, etc. Hypothetical example: in tests the rope actually broke at 6248 lbs. Once company chooses to be conservative and rate their rope at 5000 lbs, knowing it still meets NFPA standards and they want to maintain a reputation in the market for conservative ratings. Another company may opt to rate theirs at 6000 lbs so they can claim a stronger rope.

Same has been true with rope diameters. Two companies want to sell 9.5mm ropes. One company wants to sell the lightest 9.5mm rope on the market. So their 9.5mm rope is 9.4mm, which shaves a few grams. Another company wants to sell the strongest 9.5mm rope on the market. Their 9.5mm rope is 9.6mm, which add a bit more material and provides a bit more strength.

[SirKnotcelot]

The Bluewater e-mail has the sound/rhythm of an explanation; but I hope that folks are paying better attention than that, and realize that at issue is the information seen publicy on the recent hangtag (which reads "6,000#" not something "conservative") and on-line (which has the apparent inconsistencies--SWL of two seeming identical 8mm ropes) data.

I'm not sure how marketing can seek to have a conservative-strength reputation w/o assuring that SOMEone is out there doing tests in order to show that indeed the ratings belie actual strength. One can see ropes listed with various data (sometimes e.g. both an "average" and "miniumum" breaking strength"), and one can analyze the data and find some anomalous relations (where the relative strength of a couple sizes falls well outside of what one expects given some strength-per-size figuring). In short, one needs to read with caution.

Then come the knot-strength tests that rely on these vendor ratings of tensile strength for a basis for figuring knot efficiency, and ... .

Size, given in diameter, has supposedly much "nominal"ness to it; one can see the mismatches between inch-wise & metric equalities, e.g., where an inch might be equated with 12, 12.5, 12.7 (closest), & 13mm--and similarly up the scale for multiples. I've seen manufacturers recommend using weight as the better index. (I recall buying some Vectran 12-strand cord that needed significant fattening to reach its nominal size.)-:

--SirKnotcelot

[SLewis]

Rich - Thanks for the update/new ropes (pricey) from BW!
Will be interesting to see/test other (useful) product as it arrives.

You highlight new BW Ropes but then offer a side note re
Sterling Ropes: note, www.sterlingropes.com
Under "Canyoning Series" they list three items:

*9mm Canyon Tech; tan/green tracer;
poly/technora over poly (at least it's reported as poly)

*9mm HTP (colors - turq & bright green)
100% poly

*Chain Reactor; Nylon 6 piece; replacement for daisy chain.

I've used all three items: Tested for a full season (in 2005-6) the HTP; and sent a report to Sterling. Have used the Canyon Tech and Daisy Chain in 2007. At the IME climbing shop in SLC, the HTP sells for approx $130 and the Canyon Tech, approx $180 (both @200 ft.)

Blue Water Ropes: I've used/abused and lost faith in too many BW 8mm canyon pro ropes (major sheath slippage too often). The 8mm canyon pro DS has a tough sheath, but still I've seen it also slip. Of late - as to 9mm lines - I've enjoyed the 9mm BW canyon DS. @ 200ft. it's a lb ligher than the above Sterling lines. I also frequently use Tom's Cancord Hercules - 8 & 9mm lines, sold locally as Imlay rope.

Will be interesting to see the weight/price/availability of the new BW ropes.
And to see their operating styles in dry/wet cyns. If the price is out of bounds though and/or they are not available, then what benefit to the public? If B Heaton in Cedar Cty doesn't have it or can't get it; and/or it's not available on line, then it simply gets talked about and/or Rich (and a handful of others) display demos.

Price, weight, durability, availability...
(brand loyalty and I suppose feel and color too).
BW, IMLAY, Sterling + some/many others?
Stiff, supple, skinny, light or heavier or not so heavy 9mm line?

I'm sure Rich/others will offer info/views on new product
and data re the growing crowd of canyon lines. If one has OK health
and time - one can arguably test out most/all of the newer lines.
And it's OK to let a buddy - someone else - buy those "pricey lines."
(To date, I'm still looking for that cyn gear buying buddy. Sure, I'd like
to try out (all) the new BW ropes.)

[rcwild]

*9mm Canyon Tech; tan/green tracer;
poly/technora over poly (at least it's reported as poly)

Someone posted here in another thread that it's not poly, but nylon. Spec on web site was an error. Or do I have it backwards? Was it previously reported as nylon, but is really poly ??


*9mm HTP (colors - turq & bright green)
100&#37; poly

Didn't mention because it's not new. People have been using Sterling HTP for canyons for quite a while.


*Chain Reactor; Nylon 6 piece; replacement for daisy chain.

Actually a nylon version of Metolius PAS. See related thread:

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1649


Blue Water Ropes: I've used/abused and lost faith in too many BW 8mm canyon pro ropes (major sheath slippage too often). The 8mm canyon pro DS has a tough sheath, but still I've seen it also slip.

I've heard, but never experienced this personally.


If the price is out of bounds though and/or they are not available, then what benefit to the public?

I suppose some rich attorneys like Steve will fork over 1.75 per foot for the new BlueWater Canyon X rope, but us poor canyoneering instructors will only get to try it if we get free samples. :p


If B Heaton in Cedar Cty doesn't have it or can't get it; and/or it's not available on line, then it simply gets talked about and/or Rich (and a handful of others) display demos.

Ben's not in Cedar City anymore. He moved to the metropolis of Orangeville.

The only availability issues I'm aware of were with Canyon Pro. That was due to military acquisition of Spectra supply. BW switched to Dyneema.

I think the canyoneering market is still growing, but it may be a challenge for manufacturers to develop products when opinions are so incredibly diverse. But, hey, that's what keeps life interesting.

There are some other canyoneering-specific products in the works. I'll be testing some of them in the near future.

[SLewis]

Oh, to have a full quiver of engaging interesting friends.
Thanks for the civility in your response Rich.

The Sterling Canyon Tech. I'm no scientist and how does one,
test the communicative offering from a far away Sterling employee?
I was told by a Sterling employee (on the phone) that the core was poly?
The printed Sterling brochure, that highlights the "Canyoneering Series"
lists the tech rope as technora/poly sheath and poly core. And the
web site implies the same. I accept that the material I've read, and
the story I was told, is in error. The core may be nylon? I'll make
further inquiry. Minor matter, but still of interest to me.

B & A Heaton - Emery County, Orangeville? "The only constant in life is change?" They moved from red rock Shakespeare land to coal country? I got connected to those folk - what's his new flegdling professional line? And is the Mountain Shop in Cedar still in operation and who'se the new boss?

Availability of canyon ropes? On the Wasatch Front, Imlay Cyn ropes, 8 and 9mm, are often avialable. IME now sells the Sterling and stocks Imlay. Black Diamond retail store most often stocks the Imlay line. It's rare to find a store that stocked Blue Water Canyon, Blue Water Canyon DS or either of the BW canyon pro lines. At times, the Shop in Cedar City did not have the Canyon, the Canyon DS, or spools or 200 ft. pieces of Canyon pro. Most folk on the Wasatch front use Imlay lines. If connected to Ben's shop, they'd potentially hook up with BW lines. The two shops in Springdale; mixed bag as to what they might offer; and Bo's shop in St. George; mixed bag there too. If I've wanted a BW Canyon DS, I'd most often have to order via Mt. Gear.

So your experience re availability is/has been different than mine. I've kept a pulse on and purchased a good number of ropes in the past 3 years. Folk in CO, AZ and or California or elsewhere - I don't know what lines are available there? When I hook up with newbies or strangers in Zion/Roost for example I'll see folk carrying Imlay rope; they are often oblivious as to other lines. Others might carry a BW Canyon but be oblivious as to the other BW lines. To some it's not important, their sense of inquiry is dulled. The shops in Springdale/Zion for a long time carried BW lines; but some have shifted to Imlay or carry both.

8mm lines/cost/hype/durability?: I still have a number of BW canyon pro lines. But until the sheath/core connection problem is modified, I don't plan to buy any more! Tom's Imlay 8mm rope is semi durable, works well enough and is reasonably priced and is easily available. So much hype re the BW Canyon Pro and Canyon Pro DS. The new ropes leave coloring in Canyons, particularly in Zion and if/when they are "single stranded" particularly in wet conditions, it's a real gamble as to whether the sheath is going to survive or come loose and slip.

I've had numerous brand new ropes, that were "jumped on" single strand - by very experienced folk - and walla, 10, 20, ft. of sheath on the line comes loose. Core shots is one thing, but to consistently have large sheath sections come loose on new or fairly new ropes is disconcerting. Every trip in Imlay I've "lost" a new or fairly new cannyon pro line. It was either sent back or cut up. It's no fable, I've not had consistent good luck with the lines. But the dance with the devil - carrying very light ropes that stuff up small - balancing reward vs. risk. (maybe I will grab some more of those BW canyon pro lines?) Were I a rich man - which I'm not - these days I'd still offer up my sheckles, as to 8mm canyon ropes, to the lower cost Imlay.

I've tried, tested, used, abused and retired or thrown away a good deal of canyon gear that at one time was HYPED by this or that person/company. I'd like something lighter, but most of time lug a metolious canyon pack (sometimes an Imlay pack). I've tried BW, Sterling, Imlay and PMI lines. The PMI sport static although Nylon, works AOK in dry cyns. Lately most line use is a poly sheath. Dry suits have been replaced by semi dry wet suits. And the new suits Tom sells are nice. The new ropes from BW - unless someone offers me a demo, I'm very unlikely to ever have one of those "darlings" in my hand. Speaking of hype. The new BD "super light" locking "utility" biner that takes a munter? The VAPOR. I took the hype bite. Got five in the mail and walla, the biners are a slimmed down "Positron", asymetric, and not (in my view) very munter friendly. Ok I guess as simply another viable utility biner that's a tab bit lighter - had I known though I'd have been content with the Positrons I currently have.

Maybe Blue Water can send a complimentary batch of their new canyon ropes my way? I'll let semi-rookies, newbies and other folk on the lines and report back. A guess? (pricey) light weight, and durablility? Ramped up, but still tenuous? Those with the connectons or doe and wish to carry the lines - best to you. Canyon gear - very mixed bag, and such a variety of views!

[rcwild]

A quote from Paul Nelson in > Technical Canyoneering > Stopper Knot Failure


The Sterling CanyonTech is a nylon core and technora sheeth, which I confirmed with their rep on the phone. It stretches more than the Sterling HTP (100 Polyester ropes). The Sterling website had an error, which I advised them about, and I hope it has been corrected.

Charly and I visited with the folks at Sterling's booth, but never occurred to me to ask about the core material.

This thread may develop into something much more involved than a simple OR Show report. There are other threads in this forum that contain much more information about rope selection. There are pros and cons between various rope fibers – nylon, polyester, Spectra/Dyneema, Kevlar, Technora – and combinations thereof. People tend to focus on one or two attributes that they deem important, while ignoring others. Be careful.

[rcwild]

I am working on my old website, which includes an online store (http://www.wildernessadventures.com/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=7). Will carry both Imlay and BlueWater ropes. I don't anticipate any availability issues.

[Paul Nelson]

The Sterling Canyon Tech. I'm no scientist and how does one,
test the communicative offering from a far away Sterling employee?
I was told by a Sterling employee (on the phone) that the core was poly?
The printed Sterling brochure, that highlights the "Canyoneering Series"
lists the tech rope as technora/poly sheath and poly core. And the
web site implies the same. I accept that the material I've read, and
the story I was told, is in error. The core may be nylon? I'll make
further inquiry. Minor matter, but still of interest to me.



Regarding the 9mm Sterling Canyon Tech, based upon earlier (but now corrected) website information, I thought is was a poly core/technora sheath, but the one I have stretches more than the 9mm Sterling HTP (100 Polyester) rope that I have in my rope inventory. I called Sterling to ask if the CanyonTech has a polyester core then why does it stretch more than your HTP and it seems to behave more like their nylon superstatic. After consulting with the technical department, the person confirmed it was a nylon core. I then pointed out the error on their website which said poly core/technora sheath.

It seems strange you got the opposite answer, but if the person on the phone was using the website information, then that would be the explanation. ? I wonder if Sterling changed the construction from an earlier prototype? Does the Canyontech you have behave like the HTP

http://www.sterlingrope.com/2005/climbing_products3.asp

Click on Canyon Products, then on Canyon Ropes. It clearly says “Canyon Tech™ (a Technora&#174; sheath/nylon core rope)”.

[rcwild]

B & A Heaton - Emery County, Orangeville? "The only constant in life is change?" They moved from red rock Shakespeare land to coal country? I got connected to those folk - what's his new flegdling professional line? And is the Mountain Shop in Cedar still in operation and who'se the new boss?

With wife and three kids, Ben decided to get one of those ... uh ... what do they call them? Oh, yeah, JOBS! He's working for a cell phone company.

He still owns the Mountain Shop. Currently managed by his wife's sister, Megan and her husband, Steve. Ben, Megan and Steve were all at the OR Show.

Stay tuned.

[SLewis]

I agree - this thread was intended as an OR Show update.
Whatever?

Sterling Static (canyon) Lines:
I've used two different HTP lines in the past two years.
Both are 9lb 200 ft. and have performed seamlessly in wet and dry conditons.
Neither, after being used numerous times, show much sign of wear.

(I wish though, that the new sterling ropes weighed in at 8lb rather than 9.
The BW Canyon or Canyon DS are closer to 8lb. which is nice. The Imlay 9mm is closer to 9lb.)

As to the Canyon Tech. When I got it, I assumed it might perform like the BW Canyon DS. (not so) As Paul noted, yes, the rope seems to have more stretch in it than the HTP and "on rap" it has a slightly different "hand and feel." But still, on the whole, it's performed well enough and after use shows little wear. But in my case the "Tech" has only been used in dry cyns.

With the technora/poly sheath the Canyon Tech is some 40-60 bucks cheaper than the BW Canyon DS (which also has a technora sheath); but if it carries a nylon core, is the price difference a concern, if one is really after a poly core?

Personally, these days, I like to know the composition of ropes I'm using.
If in a wet cyn environment I no longer wish to bother with nylon ropes.
They perform OK, but water infiltration seems to effect wear, and it adds
to the weight of the line.

A future discussion (on another thread) could offer an easy outline
of "available" static canyon lines - at least for this region of the US. I prepared an abbreviated sheet for a canyon tech REI show in the spring - a show I did with Ryan C and Rick T. I listed Imlay, BW, Sterling and PMI lines @200 ft.;composition, weight and approx cost; and a note as to where folk could get the ropes. A while back, Rich posted a short note re available canyon ropes listing BW, ST and Imlay.

Present market for "canyon ropes." Via research and store contacts:my view
"best buy" balances quality, price, poly composition and easy availability
Best buy in 8mm line - Imlay (cancord hercules) approx 130$
Best buy in 9mm line - Imlay or Sterling HTP approx $140
Willing to pay a bit more - BW 9mm Canyon or Canyon DS approx $200-240
Willing to pay a lot more - BW 8mm Canyon Pro or CP DS $$$ 250-350

I'm not sure what folk are using in Mountain Canyons in Colorado and Cal. I've spoken with some Cal folk that report they use many of the same traditional lines used in redrock cyns - UT and AZ. The Euro crowd, they apparently use 10 and 11mm lines - via a myriad of rope makers?

I agree with and defer to Rich - there are some/many nuances in present static canyon ropes. For the unitiated, I'd "watch out" before buying or using the skinny 8mm BW Canyon Pro lines;and a big watch out/stay away from the 8mm "static" Beal Trail Line that shows up in REI stores. They often discount it and ignorant clerks pawn it off on unwary customers that mention "canyoneering." People buy it - it's static, 8mm, light and it's so cheap! And then try to use it in canyons - YIKES - the inside (core) of the rope falls apart.

Rich Carlson a retailer and distributor of IMLAY and BW Ropes?
Nice, I guess, as long as reasonable (or negotiable) prices exist.

[Marc McDonald]

Folk in CO, AZ and or California or elsewhere - I don't know what lines are available there?

At least on the front range of Colorado I've found getting canyoneering gear locally to be difficult, unless it just happens to be something sport climbers use too. I live in the climbing mecca of Boulder, just a few miles from Eldorado Canyon. Here we have two choices, REI and Neptune Mountaineering.

REI has a few low-stretch lines (just don't call it that because the only term they know is "static line"), but they are generally the big honking 11mm lines most canyoneers don't want to carry (they are also usually only available in 50-meter lengths). Of course they will be glad to order anything you want, just as long as it's in the REI corporate catalog.

At Neptune's if you tell the associates you're looking for ropes for cayoneering they'll usually tell you they don't carry anything for canyoneering and run away as fast as they possibly can. If you dig through the rope racks yourself, you will find the only low-stretch rope is either Beal 8mm Trail Line (not intended to be used for climbing) or the hefty BlueWater 10.5mm Big Wall.

The Boulder Sports Recycler carries some climbing ropes from time to time, but I've never seen anything but dynamic ropes there.

Carl Weil at Wilderness Medicine Outfitters in Elizabeth, CO (south of Denver) will be glad to order you the canyoneering products from New England Rope (KM III and KM III Max), but he doesn't have any samples on site. I have been tempted to try the 9mm KM III Max, but I haven't heard any reports from folks who've used it for canyoneering. Anyone have any experience with this rope?

The bottom line is I went to Moab to get my BW Canyon Pro, because it was the closest place I could actually see one. In the future, I will probably just buy my canyoneering ropes from Tom Jones (Imlay). At least I know they work for canyoneering.

[/quote] I've tried, tested, used, abused and retired or thrown away a good deal of canyon gear that at one time was HYPED by this or that person/company. [/quote]

Don't feel alone. I have a closet full of "the hottest thing out there" items I've rejected as well.

Marc

[jsostheim]

Year right, for those coming to the Costa Rica rendez-vous, if you want to make a donation of all your rejected "hottest thing out there" items, I'll be more than willing to accept. I'm sure I could put them to good use out here.

[mountain man]

I thought this would be the best place to post this question. Just purchased a 300ft X 8mm Imlay rope and it is stiff. I tried rap on it, and it helped but it was still too stiff to properly dress any knots on it. I've heard a couple "old wives" suggestions. But I would trust the experts on here before compromise the rope strenght. What is the best way to get out the stiffness so I can tie two ropes together and make it down safely instead of the knot rolling on me.

thanks,

Shaun

[ratagonia]

I thought this would be the best place to post this question. Just purchased a 300ft X 8mm Imlay rope and it is stiff. I tried rap on it, and it helped but it was still too stiff to properly dress any knots on it. I've heard a couple "old wives" suggestions. But I would trust the experts on here before compromise the rope strenght. What is the best way to get out the stiffness so I can tie two ropes together and make it down safely instead of the knot rolling on me.

thanks,

Shaun

Thanks for your question, and purchase, Shaun.

They start a little stiff, but soften up with 5-10 rappels. Since your main concern is the ends, you could tie both ends off about 20 feet from the ends to a tree (ie, so each end is tied off to an anchor, 20 feet from the end), and do horizontal rappels. No need to get vertical, just thread your rappel device with lots of friction, and walk away from the anchor with as much weight on the rope as possible. 15-20 of these should soften up the working ends of the ropes pretty well.

When tying an offset overhand bend, or OOB (EDK), I have found that using the 'four strand pull' tightens it much better than what I did before. Pull each of the four strands separately against the knot. This should tighten the knot up pretty firmly, quickly, even if the rope is kinda stiff. I like to tie a backup OOB atop the primary one.

hope that helps.

Tom

[boboangel]

I sent an e-mail to sterling ropes and got this response regarding their Canyon Tech rope. I thought the forum would be interested to know that they are considering Dyneema and Polypropylene cores.




Hey Thanks for the e-mail.
The core is Nylon - and people are really loving that that construction!

In the future we may be offering both a Dyneema core versions and a Polypropylene core version.

Any authorized Sterling Rope Dealer can special order that for you!


JB [John Branagan]

[rcwild]

I sent an e-mail to sterling ropes and got this response regarding their Canyon Tech rope. I thought the forum would be interested to know that they are considering Dyneema and Polypropylene cores.

BlueWater has already come out with a Dyneema-core Technora-sheath rope. They had one at the OR show and proclaimed it to be "the most expensive canyoneering rope on the planet". Them high-tech fibers are pricey.

Polypropylene is not as strong (or as expensive) as Dyneema, but will absorb less water and has a specific gravity less than one. It will float, but not enough to overcome the weight of the sheath. In other words, it will still sink, just not as quickly.

[brucefrombryce]

Going through Kolob we needed a rope up for the next rappel and he threw a Bluewater 200' to me but it came up short. It sank so fast I couldn't get it. I moved over to wear I thought it was and tried to get it with my foot -- no dice. I could feel that the bottom of the pool actually was slanting away from me and it looked like the rope had just slipped farther down into the pool.

I could walk to the edge of the pool but could feel the slope moving away from me also. I fould a stick to fish for the rope but to no avail. I then girth hitched my Pirahna to the stick and started to deep fish. Finally I had to have Lauren hold my harness to I could lean out and get deeper into the pool.

Finally one the Pirahna's side nibs caught the rope and it came up. Quite an experience and I was happy because the next option was to attempt to dive to get the rope. Not one that would work with a wetsuit on.

[hank_moon]

Nice retrieval

After watching a similar episode go down in my first trip through Heaps, kinda adopted a big-wall mentality in wet canyons. keep everything clipped in, floating, or both - esp. when throwing.

[bashfulbob]

After chasing this thread, watching what folks at the Rondy were using, visiting rope makers web sites, talking to Rich, Dave and others this is what I have come up with reference to rope.

1. Safety is paramount. What you carry should be based on what you will need if the worst possible thing that could happen did happen. You need to take care of your rope because it is your butt that is hanging on it. The list for care and cleaning of ropes is long illustrious and not needed here.

2. A static rope 60 meters/200' is a good size for most canyons I will encounter until I know a hellava lot more than I do now. Another 100' rope in the bag is a good thing and in many instances another 200' rope is even better.

3. As a rookie I should be using at least 9 mm or larger rope. Talked to some cavers and they like some really big rope. They also are not totting it any further than the first drop where it hangs until they scurry back up it.

4. Rope with a nylon 66 core is good, but no the best thing if it is a wet environment. A poly core rope would be a better choice for the wet places.

4. Rope bags are the way to go.

5. Accessory cord is good as long as you don't carry it for a substitute for that extra rope.

How am I doing so far?

Bob Appleget doing business as bashfulbob.

[DJ Meding]

Nicole and I were out with the Chicago Mountaineering Club this weekend doing some practice. We set up a 9.2 Imlay for a rap line and many people asked if they could try out our Pirahnas. We said sure but you are going down on a single line. They all balked at such a skinny rope single strand. We then schooled them on fireman's belay and figure 8 block safety features of single strand. Everyone went down and some came back up for more. The best was one girl who half way down a 50ft drop looked over to her friends and yelled oh my god this is insane, you have to try it!
Dave

[ratagonia]

After chasing this thread, watching what folks at the Rondy were using, visiting rope makers web sites, talking to Rich, Dave and others this is what I have come up with reference to rope.

1. Safety is paramount. What you carry should be based on what you will need if the worst possible thing that could happen did happen. You need to take care of your rope because it is your butt that is hanging on it. The list for care and cleaning of ropes is long illustrious and not needed here.

2. A static rope 60 meters/200' is a good size for most canyons I will encounter until I know a hellava lot more than I do now. Another 100' rope in the bag is a good thing and in many instances another 200' rope is even better.

3. As a rookie I should be using at least 9 mm or larger rope. Talked to some cavers and they like some really big rope. They also are not totting it any further than the first drop where it hangs until they scurry back up it.

4. Rope with a nylon 66 core is good, but not the best thing if it is a wet environment. A poly core rope would be a better choice for the wet places.

4. Rope bags are the way to go.

5. Accessory cord is good as long as you don't carry it for a substitute for that extra rope.

How am I doing so far?

Bob Appleget doing business as bashfulbob.

You doing good, Bob. But, a few comments:

1. Yes, Safety is Job One. Certainly, but you avoided addressing the question, which is, HOW much rope to carry. The answer is, of course, "it depends!" It depends on how good you are at avoiding getting the rope stuck or damaged, and your responsibility level for the trip. When guiding, my answer is 3X the longest rappel - in a canyon with well-set-up anchors and most variables are known. For personal trips, sometimes more, sometimes less; but I am now uncomfortable not having a 1X rescue rope in my pack at all times!

And, if you cannot imagine getting more than one rope stuck, may I introduce you to my friend, Lodge Canyon?

3. As a rookie, you should learn to use your tools. The problem most people have with 8mm ropes is that they try to use the same tools IN THE SAME WAY as they used on fatter ropes. It don't work so good! 9mm ropes have the advantage that they take abuse much better, and are much easier for people who do not know how to use their tools very well to get enough friction on. You may be going out with some of these people, they are called noobies. The disadvantage is that they are heavier and stiffer. The 9mm ropes, not the noobies, although that also is often true. Makes your choices.

Cavers also ascend their ropes. In which case, let me tell you, our little 8mm cords suddenly look kinda small. Cavers should use bigger ropes, they put more wear and tear on them, and as you mentioned, sometimes don't have to carry them very far.

4. I'm not sure the material of the core makes too much difference in water absorption. Certainly the sheath does, which is why everyone used Polyester. BUT, the material of the core and sheath will give ropes a remarkably different feel (especially for them all being called "static"). Personally, I am fond of polyester/polyester.

5. Accessory cord? Mmmmmmmm. Got to disagree. Nylon accessory cord does not make a very good Pull Cord because it is too stretchy and absorbs too much water. My Imlay Pull Cord is designed to be low-absorbtion and low-stretch - and seems to work much, much better. YMMV.

Even a static accessory cord is not a substitute for a rescue rope. Consider carefully your choices. Hell is being at the top of a drop while a loved one is stuck on rappel, and being unable to do anything to assist, because "I don't need a rescue rope; nothing ever happens on MY trips".

Tom

[rambler-joe]

Even a static accessory cord is not a substitute for a rescue rope. Consider carefully your choices. Hell is being at the top of a drop while a loved one is stuck on rappel, and being unable to do anything to assist, because "I don't need a rescue rope; nothing ever happens on MY trips".Tom

Hey Bob.
We always carry four ropes in deeper canyons, ie anything higher than half the length of our ropes. Set up two at the first abseil, locked by a stein knot, or similar, and leapfrog the other two to the next stance. We abseil on alternate sides of the pair with someone hooking up on the free side. If there is a problem we can get the second person off rope quickly and use that side as a rescue rope. In smaller canyons we carry two ropes and anchor in the middle. Yes it can mean two people are on the anchor at the same time but that takes us into a discussion of anchor selection, which is covered elsewhere in these forums.
Rambler-joe

[rcwild]

5. Accessory cord? Mmmmmmmm. Got to disagree. ...

If I'm not mistaken, Bob is referencing a workshop he attended during the Zion rendezvous. The ACA tries to drive home the same point with recreational canyoneers as we drill into you guides. He said accessory cord, but I think he means any kind of pull cord. Pull cords are over-used by canyoneers.

Longest rappel in the canyon is 100 feet. Let's carry a 100 foot rope and a 100 foot pull cord so we can save 2 pounds. WRONG ANSWER! If something goes wrong can you perform a rescue with 6mm pull cord? No. Or perhaps your main rope is compromised. Will you now rappel on your 6mm pull cord? You could, but who wants to?

Suck it up. Carry that extra 2 pounds and bring REAL rope. It is standard practice for guides to carry 2X main rope and 1X backup/rescue rope. Recreational canyoneers should be thinking the same way.

I'm not saying there is no legitimate reason for carrying pull cord. If there are multiple problems in the canyon, one after another, it will make sense to leap frog. Having a pull cord in the mix, along with mulitple ropes, will provide some extra rigging options. But a REAL backup/rescue rope should be held in the back of the line.

So Bob's comment ... Pull cord is good as long as you don't carry it for a substitute for that extra rope.

[SirKnotcelot]

BlueWater has ... proclaimed it to be "the most expensive canyoneering rope on the planet".
Wow, what a great selling point! (Seriously, it IS apparently so (some study) for many things, in this age of millions of millionaires the richer of whom are looking for distinction beyond the run of the mill millionaire.)


Polypropylene is not as strong (or as expensive) as Dyneema, but will absorb less water and has a specific gravity less than one. It will float, but not enough to overcome the weight of the sheath. In other words, it will still sink, just not as quickly.
Hmmm, the data I see has "0%" for water absorption for both.

Beyond PP & HMPE & PES (polyester) are coextruded fibres (unfortunately marketed as "copolymers", which apparently they really are not, in the true technical sense of that term (whereas, e.g., Technora is)) such as Polysteel and Ultra Blue. PP & PE (maybe some HMPE) is the usual mixture, with Karat being one of PES/PE. So far as I'm aware, though, these CoEx fibres come only in fibrilated-fibres form, not multifilament, so might not get the flexibility needed to work in rap. devices.

Tom remarks that canyoneers should favor thicker ropes, and if one goes thicker by enlarging the core, then a lighter though weaker fibre becomes more viable, and flotation closer as it rises in proportion to the sheath's aramid or PES.

-SirKnotcelot

[rcwild]

Hmmm, the data I see has "0&#37;" for water absorption for both.

I was comparing the proposed polypropylene and Dyneema cores to the current nylon core. It would have been more clear if I said:

Polypropylene is not as strong (or as expensive) as Dyneema, but like Dyneema will absorb less water than nylon and has a specific gravity less than one ...

[rcwild]

Tom remarks that canyoneers should favor thicker ropes, and if one goes thicker by enlarging the core, then a lighter though weaker fibre becomes more viable, and flotation closer as it rises in proportion to the sheath's aramid or PES.

There were some canyoning ropes manufactured in Europe in the late 90s with polypropylene cores and polyester sheaths. In the 10mm range. Sheaths were relatively thin. I bought a few of them and they did float.

Unfortunately, they weren't very durable. I burned through several of them very quickly. Beal responded to the durability issue with a Pro Canyon model with a much thicker sheath. More durable, but with all that extra polyester in the sheath, it didn't float.

[Paul Nelson]

As a rookie I should be using at least 9 mm or larger rope. Talked to some cavers and they like some really big rope. They also are not totting it any further than the first drop where it hangs until they scurry back up it.


Good decision on sellecting a 9mm rope as your primary rope. As a caver with over 20 years of experience, 9mm is my primary choice for canyoneering. I generally carry the 8mm only as the back-up rope for canyoneering.


Cavers also ascend their ropes. In which case, let me tell you, our little 8mm cords suddenly look kinda small. Cavers should use bigger ropes, they put more wear and tear on them, and as you mentioned, sometimes don't have to carry them very far.
Tom

Because of the bounce when you ascend, any rub point can damage and cut the rub. For caving I would never plan to use a 8mm to ascend! When I use 9mm, I rig european style (re-belays) to avoid rub points or use a rope pads. I generally use 10 mm for caving, and I still avoid rub points because I want my rope to last a long time.

If not a through trip, cavers do leave the rope because they have to go back up the rope. However, the first drop may not the at the entrance, it could be far into the cave and you have the carrying that rope up climbs, muddy crawls, squeezes, etc. When that rope gets wets and muddy, it gets heavy! Plus if there are 5 drops, that means carrying 5 ropes! That is when I bring the 9mm polyester.

[bashfulbob]

Cavers also ascend their ropes. In which case, let me tell you, our little 8mm cords suddenly look kinda small. Cavers should use bigger ropes, they put more wear and tear on them, and as you mentioned, sometimes don't have to carry them very far.

Although caves are not my thing there are a lot more caves than canyons in my area. I am on a waiting list for a vertical rope class with On Rope 1 which will be mostly caving, but will provide additional information on using ropes etc.


5. Accessory cord? Mmmmmmmm. Got to disagree. Nylon accessory cord does not make a very good Pull Cord because it is too stretchy and absorbs too much water. My Imlay Pull Cord is designed to be low-absorbtion and low-stretch - and seems to work much, much better. YMMV.

Even a static accessory cord is not a substitute for a rescue rope. Consider carefully your choices. Hell is being at the top of a drop while a loved one is stuck on rappel, and being unable to do anything to assist, because "I don't need a rescue rope; nothing ever happens on MY trips".


Got my cords mixed up. Rich was right I was talking about pull cord not accessory cord. One guy, who must have been one of those nothing ever happens on my trip guys, told me if 100' was the l longest rap he would take a 100' rope and a 100' pull cord.

Thanks for the help.


Bob

[Marc McDonald]

One guy, who must have been one of those nothing ever happens on my trip guys, told me if 100' was the l longest rap he would take a 100' rope and a 100' pull cord.

Thanks for the help.


Bob

Bob,

Let's get the disclaimers out of the way up front.
#1 Most of my experience is in dry canyons and canyons without significant current on the Colorado Plateau. I also dislike large parties. I avoid parties of more than six and prefer three or four.
#2 How much rope and what kind of rope depends greatly on the kind of party and the kind of canyon you're doing.
#3 Different folks have different ways of doing things and I'll be the first to admit I'm a little more conservative than some of the other folks on this forum, BUT...

The recommendation that a 100' rope and a 100' pull cord is adequate for a canyon with a 100' drop seems like bad intel to me. As Rich and several others have pointed out, this tactic leaves you without an adequate backup in case there's a problem. That alone should be reason enough to carry at least a second rope, but there's also another advantage to having a second rope and that's one of efficiency. Having a second rope means you can send a rope forward to the next drop with the first person down who can start rigging the next rappel as folks are finishing the last one. With larger parties more ropes means rappels can be set up further down canyon, which can make a big difference in long canyons.

With a small experienced party (four or less), where our longest drop is KNOWN to be 150' to 200' I may go with two 200' ropes, but that would be a minimum. In most situations I would agree that three times the longest drop is a good place to start, but once again it all depends. I hope this helps.

Marc

[moab mark]

Ball park #'s how much weight difference is there in a 200' 9 mm and a 200' 8 mm.
Thanks
Mark

[rcwild]

Imlay ropes, per 100 feet:

8mm
3 lbs. 5.3 oz (1520 grams)

9mm
4 lbs. 2.5 oz. (1885 grams)

So, for a 200 foot rope, the weight difference is around 2 lbs.

6mm pull cord:

Length: 200 feet
Weight: 4 lbs. 1 oz. (approx)

Weight savings of pull cord over 8mm is around 3 lbs.

[bashfulbob]

Thanks Marc

As I don't think I am immortal like I once did I too tend to error on the side of caution. Also have an understanding of Murphy's law and a fondness for redundancy. Feel fortunate that I came around in a time when there are a bunch of folks that have been there, done that and gotten the t-shirt and are willing to share.

Bob

[gootwan]

On a hike with a max 200ft drop, what would be the advantage of bringing 3x that of rope, rather than 2x of rope and 1x of pull cord? Then you'd have 200ft of rappel rope, 200ft of cord to pull it down, and 200ft of back-up/ rescue rope. Seems that would be easier to move through the canyon than 600ft of rope... at least with a smaller group.

Jordan

[rcwild]

How are you rigging the rope? Double? Block? Releasable?

If rigging double (perhaps because friction is a major concern), 2X rope is committed to the rappel. Need another 1X rope in case a rescue is necessary.

If rigging releasable (Class C canyon, etc.), 2X rope is needed for main line – 1X for rappel, plus 1X held in reserve in rope bag in case a hasty lower is necessary.

If rigging blocks, your 1X main rope, 1X pull cord, plus 1X backup/rescue rope solution is workable – as long as your main rope doesn't get damaged. But ropes never get damaged. Do they?

[hank_moon]

I'd like to see a poll if that's possible on this site:

For lack of rope, have you ever (Y/N)

a. Become stuck?
b. Been exposed to significant risk of injury or death?
c. Had a good time?
d. Had a bad time?

If you have experienced rope deficit, was the rope (Y/N)

Lost due to human error? (Y/N)
Lost due to objective factors? (Y/N)
Damaged due to human error? (Y/N)
Damaged due to objective factors? (Y/N)
Left behind/forgotten? (Y/N)
Other? (Y/N)

[rcwild]

I'd like to see a poll if that's possible on this site:

I know I can set one up. Curious to know if you can.

Select "Thread Tools". Do you see an option called "Add a Poll to this Thead" ?

[hank_moon]

I know I can set one up. Curious to know if you can.

Select "Thread Tools". Do you see an option called "Add a Poll to this Thead" ?

no, but 3 options are displayed:

printable version
email this page
unsub

[gootwan]

How are you rigging the rope? Double? Block? Releasable?

If rigging double (perhaps because friction is a major concern), 2X rope is committed to the rappel. Need another 1X rope in case a rescue is necessary.

If rigging releasable (Class C canyon, etc.), 2X rope is needed for main line – 1X for rappel, plus 1X held in reserve in rope bag in case a hasty lower is necessary.

If rigging blocks, your 1X main rope, 1X pull cord, plus 1X backup/rescue rope solution is workable – as long as your main rope doesn't get damaged. But ropes never get damaged. Do they?


Makes sense... thanks.

Jordan

[rcwild]

no, but 3 options are displayed:

printable version
email this page
unsub

Permissions are set so users can add a poll when they start a thread. I can't find a setting for allowing users to add a poll to an existing thread.

Feel free to start another thread with your poll idea.

[moab mark]

Rich,
Thanks for the info on the different rope weights. Gotta another question? What is the weight of a 9 mm 100 ft imlay rope?
Thanks
Mark

[ratagonia]

Like Rich said:


Imlay ropes, per 100 feet:

8mm
3 lbs. 5.3 oz (1520 grams)

9mm
4 lbs. 2.5 oz. (1885 grams)

So, for a 200 foot rope, the weight difference is around 2 lbs.

6mm pull cord:

Length: 200 feet
Weight: 4 lbs. 1 oz. (approx)

Weight savings of pull cord over 8mm is around 3 lbs.

[moab mark]

Sorry Rich,
I miss understood the original rope weight post. My bad.
Mark

[rcwild]

Sorry Rich,
I miss understood the original rope weight post. My bad.
Mark

No worries. Keep in mind that those weights are for one rope brand – polyester over polyester. Different fibers will have different weights for the same diameter. But for the purposes of this discussion the ballpark numbers should suffice. I hope canyoneers will consider carrying an extra 2 or 3 pounds a very small price to pay for the extra margin of safety.

[bashfulbob]

Just went through about half of the rope thread cause I thought maybe my question had already been answered, but ran out of gas about the sixth page. Anyway my questions are about new rope.

I have a new 9m static nylon rope with a poly sheath. As we are short of Utah type canyons in Carolina I took it out to play on a 15' drop off and about 150' of rock in the middle of a creek which I have down climbed. I rigged everything up took a couple steps back to the edge and went whoa. The rope went through my Pirana like greasy bbs down a rain spout giving a whole meaning to the ole saying "slicker than snot on a door knob".

Anyway my question is what does it take to get the new (slickness) out of the rope? I know it depends, but answers that contain ball park figures will work just fine.

B:rockon:

[rcwild]

Rappel, rappel, rappel. Then rappel some more. Polyester will get a little fuzzy over time. That's normal and will provide a slower ride than that shiny new surface. For now, add a bit more friction on that Pirana.

[paulsailer]

How was the rope rigged on the pirana

In my experience most single ropes require at least one or two ears

[bashfulbob]

Rigged the pirana the same way I had with ropes that were broken in and it was not enough friction for the new rope. Added some more friction and the Pirana worked just fine.

I had read how new ropes were slick, but didn't realize how slick.

I have since done a couple more rappells and the rope is coming around.

Bob

[SLewis]

What's the brand/style of your line? Imlay/Cancord; Blue Water, Sterling, PMI; other? If you rig your line round a pole/tree/branch, extend it out, place a rap device/w/biner on it and then pull through the length of the "double line" a number of times, it will loosen the line, break it in a bit & cause it to have more friction - I'm surprised you didn't do that before you took it on it's initial in canyon launch. I've see some lines when new, that have a shine to them and are very slick. Once water, sand, grit and pulls over slickrock occur though, the temperment of the line will/should evolve/change. And, your rap device? and angle of drop - free hang or sloped? If using a pirana, I assume single strand w/a 9mm line? And the weight on the line is/can be a factor.

[gsveum]

I LOVE my new style ATC with groved slots, this "degreases" the rope quickly!

[rambler-joe]

What's the brand/style of your line? Imlay/Cancord; Blue Water, Sterling, PMI; other? If you rig your line round a pole/tree/branch, extend it out, place a rap device/w/biner on it and then pull through the length of the "double line" a number of times, it will loosen the line, break it in a bit & cause it to have more friction - I'm surprised you didn't do that before you took it on it's initial in canyon launch. I've see some lines when new, that have a shine to them and are very slick. Once water, sand, grit and pulls over slickrock occur though, the temperment of the line will/should evolve/change. And, your rap device? and angle of drop - free hang or sloped? If using a pirana, I assume single strand w/a 9mm line? And the weight on the line is/can be a factor.

Can someone please remove his/her "/" key from the keyboard/touchpad before I go/become mad/crazy from reading/interpreting the message/story he/she is trying/attempting to relate/tell.:taz:
Rambler-joe

[gsveum]

Lol/rotflmao/hstf/!!?/ok/

[SLewis]

Rambler Joe - PLEASE, don't go crazy - we've enough politicians that nearly every time they act or open their mouths; the evidence just dumps or spills. We don't need the same in "canyon chat corners."

Typing a note on a bulletin board? Typing a text message? Means of language these days? LOL-Lot's of Luck; IMHO-In My Humble Opinion; Why do folk leave lumps of letters when they could spell it out? I don't question them, it's their call. Do you likewise squirm and scream if receiving an abbreviated text message? Dear, the sky must be falling, often.

If quickly typing a note on this canyon site, I've on occasion hit a certain "bar" when I was thinking "OR", and I assumed & hoped the reader with some cerebral cognitive call, might easily comprehend. Lordy, have you RJ never received a scribbled note from a mate or the opposite sex and wondered what all the scratching was about? And then when you questioned, the other side suggested something was wrong with you? Possibly the "/" reminds you of a dark side drama or you were bored and were looking for a tail to pin on the donkey and "/" was it. Mercy, some folk sneeze, at just the slightest breeze.

Your response. It could have been short and brief: "thanks for the post. in the future please spell it out rather than link words with "/". " But you offered something otherwise. your response, it speaks for itself.

I'll try for your benefit RJ, to in the future cancel the "/" entries; unless of course, such a typo is called for. (Maybe / can stand for raping down a sloped, rather than a free hang line?) And what mark though when one offers a caustic critique when "the sender" felt his lines were in good faith and fair? Funny, there is more than a full quiver of personalities and styles that grace this site with regular offering. And there is most often education, sometimes good faith correction, and other times, drawn out critical banter. Where the latter comes from, I don't know? Those littering the site with such, maybe they can clue us in?

In the last 7 years I've been through a bundle of canyon ropes; a variety of brands and rope colors too. And once upon a time I slipped down a line too fast on a new rope and it nearly cost me. My previous note, was a sincere attempt at and implied hope, that others don't have close calls on new slick lines.

And now that I know Rambler Joe's eyes are upon our public writings, I guess it's best to dress up the talk and chat, just as if it were an English paper or legal brief? Nothing left to the imagination, no abbreviations, no short-cuts. Because, By Golly! someone just might miss the point. (Oh wasn't the discussion about slick ropes and sliding down a line?) Ropes (NO Crazy) come(s) in how many styles and colors?

[indieandie]

OK..OK.. I get it now...don't go to the local equipment store for information...get it from the experts. Another question. I bought a 30m dynamic rope 9.0 on the advise of a salesman...he said (quoted somewhat verbatim) "When climbing in the desert, should use a dynamic rope especially when loading with a heavy person, and that static ropes don't last as long as the dynamic in desert conditons." Are these statements accurate or should I take my rope back and wait for the Basics class?

[ratagonia]

OK..OK.. I get it now...don't go to the local equipment store for information...get it from the experts. Another question. I bought a 30m dynamic rope 9.0 on the advice of a salesman...he said (quoted somewhat verbatim) "When climbing in the desert, should use a dynamic rope especially when loading with a heavy person, and that static ropes don't last as long as the dynamic in desert conditons." Are these statements accurate or should I take my rope back and wait for the Basics class?

If you are going climbing in the desert, you will want a dynamic rope, but a 30m dynamic rope is not real useful.

Canyoneering is not climbing.

When preparing for a canyoneering class, students are advised to buy gear AFTER the class; or consult with your instructor (and FOLLOW their advice, a step in the process often ignored).

Ropes are usually not returnable, sorry. However, if you CLEARLY explained what you were doing, and he sold you a dynamic rope, then you should be able to return it (tell em 'Tom' said so). You are revealing why you should buy canyoneering gear from a canyoneering retailer, rather than from a climbing retailer.

Tom

[rcwild]

OK..OK.. I get it now...don't go to the local equipment store for information...get it from the experts. Another question. I bought a 30m dynamic rope 9.0 on the advise of a salesman...he said (quoted somewhat verbatim) "When climbing in the desert, should use a dynamic rope especially when loading with a heavy person, and that static ropes don't last as long as the dynamic in desert conditons." Are these statements accurate or should I take my rope back and wait for the Basics class?

Hey Andie,

I hope you weren't shopping for rope for your course or the rendezvous next week. I have all the gear you need for the course and we'll have plenty of rope on hand for the rendezvous.

One of the nice things about the course is your ability to try different types of gear and ropes so you can make wiser purchases later.

What did the salesman say when you asked him about canyoneering in the desert? :teacher:

[indieandie]

Tom and Rich: Hope you aren't getting any more of a giggle than I am. Gotta keep my sense of humor without getting myself into too much trouble...:roflmao:

OK..I admit Jo and I wanted to be "cool" when we bought the 30meter rope (didn't think we would do more than a 10-20 foot rapel) ...but we really didn't think about your Basic class providing all the ropes. :duh:

Anyway, about the rope and the salesman, he suggested the dynamic rope in the desert because it would 'probably' hold up better because of the elasticity, and the static rope if it got wet in the canyon bottoms wouldn't dry very well or be useable. The more I think about it, this guy wasn't real sure but was doing the best he could with a couple of newbies who couldn't really answer any of his questions, either, except that we were going all the way to Utah to explore the sport of "canyoneering". And of course the term canyoneering through him for a loop, too. I, of course, not having a photographic memory could only stumble around the definition from the handbook. So, the situation probably looked like the blind leading the blind. Expensive lesson learned, but will hang on to the rope as a reminder of what should have been. Andie :bulb:

[Paul Nelson]

I bought a 30m dynamic rope 9.0 on the advise of a salesman...he said (quoted somewhat verbatim) "When climbing in the desert, should use a dynamic rope especially when loading with a heavy person, and that static ropes don't last as long as the dynamic in desert conditons."

The part, shown above, about static ropes not lasting as long as dynamic in desert conditions makes no sense. Many static ropes have very tough wearing sheaths because the rope is going to be subject to a lot more abuse such as used when muddy (i.e. caving), hauling gear, and dragged across rock during retrieval. Dynamic ropes because they need to stretch don't have a tight woven sheath as some static ropes, so they are generally less durable in abusive conditions.

[Paul Nelson]

I bought a 30m dynamic rope 9.0 ...

Assuming that is 9mm dynamic rope, you can use a some of it make your own safety tether, instead of using non-shock absorbing materials such as daisy chain (not recommended) or webbing. It is easy to make the safety to your preferred length as opposed to buying something in a fixed length such as the Petzl Spylergica (SP?).

I use a piece of dynamic rope for my safety and it works great.

[indieandie]

:taz: Oh Yea! I was also told that I should never, never cut a rope. Lessons the reliability...I dunno. I am really looking forward to that Basics class.

[rcwild]

:taz: Oh Yea! I was also told that I should never, never cut a rope. Lessons the reliability...I dunno. I am really looking forward to that Basics class.

I have an uncle in Bozeman. Next time I'm in Montana for a visit, I want you to introduce me to this climbing gear salesman. I want to make sure he never ever ever again tries to sell gear to a canyoneer. He shouldn't even be talking to canyoneers. :spank:

[nickdiy]

I just bought two Beal 8mm Trail Line Ropes from REI (the salesman who worked in the climbing section) said it is plenty strong for rappelling (I think it was rated to over 1,000 kg). Further up in this post, someone said the core of this rope can fall apart. What is the consensus? Should I return it?
Thanks.

[hank_moon]

I just bought two Beal 8mm Trail Line Ropes from REI (the salesman who worked in the climbing section) said it is plenty strong for rappelling (I think it was rated to over 1,000 kg). Further up in this post, someone said the core of this rope can fall apart. What is the consensus? Should I return it?
Thanks.

Strength is but one of several considerations and arguably the least important (provided you buy a rope that is manufactured for life safety applications).

I would take it back. Beal Trail line is notorious for QC issues related to sheath slippage and durability.

hank

[rcwild]

Strength is but one of several considerations and arguably the least important (provided you buy a rope that is manufactured for life safety applications).

I would take it back. Beal Trail line is notorious for QC issues related to sheath slippage and durability.

hank

Ditto.

[bashfulbob]

How does one get poison ivy/oak off your rope. Everything I use for poison ivy has some kind of solvent or oil involved. Figure it needs to be washed, but will plain water take care of the ivy?

BB

[Dankul]

I don't think water will wash it away since it is an oil and not water soluble. I've read that you can use baby shampoo. It is gentle enough to wash your wetsuits but i'm not 100% sure about ropes.

[NateClimb]

Sterling Rope Company makes a rope wash called " Wicked awesome rope wash" its great.

[charlybldr]

How does one get poison ivy/oak off your rope. Everything I use for poison ivy has some kind of solvent or oil involved. Figure it needs to be washed, but will plain water take care of the ivy?

BB

Depending on how much contact there was with the PI:

A good rinsing will help a lot. Such as repeated dunking in water through the remainder of the canyon.

If you can identify the exact section of rope that touched the PI, wash that section in soapy cold water (dish or baby soap) in your bathtub and thoroughly rinse.

Or machine wash, (properly packaged, front loader with mild soap no detergent caveats apply) in cold water and thoroughly rinse. Air dry away from sun or heat.

[Marc McDonald]

The active oil in poison ivy (Urushiol) is very tenacious and resists laundry detergents quite well, however there is a product called Technu that will probably work for your rope. Technu is sold as a treatment for Poison Ivy, but it's actually a soap designed specifically to break down Urushiol and allow it to be washed away. It isn't particularly cheap, but it's a lot less expensive than a rope. I've used it on people extensively and it works well. I would use the whole bottle on a rope. It's not concentrated like laundry soap. Good luck.

Marc

[bashfulbob]

I have used Tecnu in the past, but only on the bod, so after Marc's post dug out the bottle and it has all the directions for taking care of clothing, tools etc. No it is not cheap, but not all that expensive either. About the same as a decent bottle of hootch, $21.99 a quart from teclabsinc.com

I have seen some pretty nice patches of the stuff in Utah, but nothing like we encountered in Little River Canyon Ala. last week. Something else to put in the pack.

Thanks everyone for the info. Keep the faith Marc.

BB

[ddpettin]

Technu is pretty good stuff. I have seen it in bar soap form and the liquid soap form. I used it after going through some poison ivy in Parker Canyon during the AZ rendezvous. I try to always carry some with me as I am pretty sensitive to poison ivy/oak.

I have never used it on rope but do not believe it would do any harm. Here is what the label says it has for ingredients:

Deordorized Mineral Spirits
Water
Propylene Glycol
Octylphenoxy-Polythoxenthanol
Mixed Fatty Acid Soap
Fragrance

[MIQ_WRX]

I've used this Cortaid product for my skin http://www.cortaid.com/prod_ivy_care.jsp It is sold at most drug stores and grocery stores (at least here in AZ). It's expensive but works well. Might be easier to find than Technu. ??

I'm not sure anyone knows how the chemicals in these products would affect the different fibers used to make ropes. Washing your ropes off in canyon water at the time of exposure, or using a dedicated rope cleaning product once at home, seem like better ideas to me.

I've done a few canyons with PI and never had a problem with re-exposure after washing the ropes in canyon water. Your rope can get pretty clean hanging in a waterfall for while :)

-MIQ

[bashfulbob]

Appreciate all the replies and ideas. What I ended up doing was in the area of most concern on the rope took a rag with Tecnu on it and wiped it down. Gave it two minutes, Tecnu recommends saturating clothing and two minutes on your skin, and popped it into the front loader for a wash. If that doesn't do it the hell with it because that is all it is gonna get.

Really like the way the front loader handled the rope. My wife has finally figured out why I didn't have problems with the extra expense of a front loader when the old top loader gave up.

Thanks all

BB

[rcwild]

Really like the way the front loader handled the rope. My wife has finally figured out why I didn't have problems with the extra expense of a front loader when the old top loader gave up.

I can tell you from experience that washing a rope in a top loader is not a good idea. My wife still doesn't know how that motor burned out.

[bashfulbob]

I can tell you from experience that washing a rope in a top loader is not a good idea. My wife still doesn't know how that motor burned out.

If it hadn't been for you and Dave my top loader would have died long before it did. Kinda like the way it worked out when I heard Lynn tell her sister how I didn't make a fuss when she brought up the front loader.

Gotta get them where and when you can.

BB

[oldno7]

I can tell you from experience that washing a rope in a top loader is not a good idea. My wife still doesn't know how that motor burned out.

She may now:bicycle:

[thafen]

Has anyone seen or rappelled off the new Bluewater Canyon Pro Extreme? Close to pulling the trigger on the Canyon Pro DS. Any ideas on the differences or benefits of either? Thanks

[rcwild]

Has anyone seen or rappelled off the new Bluewater Canyon Pro Extreme? Close to pulling the trigger on the Canyon Pro DS. Any ideas on the differences or benefits of either? Thanks

I have sold three Xtremes. Only used it once. Not enough to know if the full Technora sheath provides enough additional abrasion resistance (and extended life) to justify the higher price. My gut is telling me you'll probably be just as happy with the DS.

[polvalt]

Forgive the Noobie question, but, when does one retire a dynamic rope? Is it the same as a static rope (core shot)? Or is there some other determining factor for a dynamic rope. I have a well used dynamic climbing rope which I only use for top-roping now. I plan on using this rope for my first few canyons, but I'm still uncertain about when the rope needs to be retired...

>>Erik in UT

[rcwild]

... when does one retire a dynamic rope? Is it the same as a static rope (core shot)? Or is there some other determining factor for a dynamic rope. I have a well used dynamic climbing rope which I only use for top-roping now. I plan on using this rope for my first few canyons, but I'm still uncertain about when the rope needs to be retired ...

There are some additional issues for dynamic ropes used for lead climbing. Each time you take a serious leader fall, your rope stretches to absorb the impact of that fall. It does not return to its original state, so the next time you take a leader fall, there won't be as much stretch. Dynamic ropes are rated by the number of UIAA-defined falls they can sustain, but you wouldn't want to take that many falls before retiring your rope. Each fall will be "less comfortable" than the previous one.

Anyway ... it has been fairly common in the past for climbing ropes to go through a few incarnations. First as a lead climbing rope, then for top-roping, then for canyoneering, then as a lead rope for taking your burro out for a walk.

[NZRM2001]

Has Anyone tried the 8.3mm Canyon Fire from Imlay? First impressions? Pros and Cons?

[AZcanyoneer]

Has Anyone tried the 8.3mm Canyon Fire from Imlay? First impressions? Pros and Cons?
Just got one this past week. Rolled through Parker with it a couple times. First impression is that it's pretty stiff but super durable. Definitely a fast line, but so is every brand new rope. Has a similar feel to the standard Imlay 8mm in that it has that same bumpy feel to it. Definitely not as smooth as the Blue Water 9.2 DS, but also considerably lighter. It didn't absorb much water either. It pulled super easy after each rap (again probably because it is brand new). Going through Imlay with it this week, so I'll have a better feel for it afterwards.

[bashfulbob]

Did Glen Falls, a mile of cascades and three water falls, and was in the water most of the time. Used a new Bluewater 9.2 canyon rope and it soaked up the water pretty good. What would be a good rope for cascading and or 3C canyons?

BB

[AZcanyoneer]

I figured I'd post an update on the Imlay 8.3 Canyon Fire.

Pros:
Lightweight
Very durable/ wears well
Doesn't absorb much water at all
Easy to control on rappels

Cons:
A bit on the stiff side
Rappels a bit on the rough side

I like this rope for many different reasons. While it's not as smooth as a BW Canyon 9.2 DS, it's lighter and doesn't absorb anywhere near the amount of water. The stiff feeling doesn't bother me, and despite the stiffness, it still takes knots well. Also, despite the 8.3 thinness, it is still very easy to control on rappels, nothing like the BW Canyon 8mm, which can be too quick without changing friction configuration.

All in all, I would recommend this line to intermediate to advanced canyoneers who are looking to add/replace a rope and want a versatile workhorse. I think beginners would like the comfort of a BW 9.2 DS as a first rope while they're getting used to rappelling, and functioning in the vertical canyoneering environment.