Passing a Knot on Rappel

[rcwild]

If you know you will be passing a knot during a rappel, you can do so with greater efficiency by pre-rigging. Start by setting up a 2-strand tether on your harness. The long strand of the tether should be just within arms reach. The short strand should be a bit less than half the length of the long one. Secure a locking carabiner to the end of each strand.

Here are some suggestions:

(a) Petzl's Spelegyca (was Energyca) is ALMOST perfect for this. Tie an overhand knot in the short strand to take out a bit of the length and it becomes perfect.

(b) Use a daisy chain as the long tether and a canyon quickdraw as the short one. Using a daisy, you also have the option to forego the short stand and simply use a carabiner clipped to your harness instead. I'm not a big fan of the long daisies sold in climbing stores. Prefer a 2-foot daisy. Got mine directly from BlueWater.

(c) You can make your own tether with 8 or 9 mm rope or cord. There is a good illustration in "On Rope".

PRE-RIGGING
Rig your rappelling device on the rope. Above your rappelling device, attach a Shunt or a prussik to the rope. Clip the long strand carabiner to the Shunt/prussik. Check the length to be sure you will be able to reach it and operate it later. Once you are sure the length is correct, clip the short strand carabiner to the long strand carabiner. If you are using a daisy chain, you can clip into one of its loops instead. You will also need a second ascender/prussik with foot loop. Ensure that it is handy. Begin your rappel, bringing the Shunt/prussik down the rope with your non-brake hand.

PASSING THE KNOT
Stop when your brake hand reaches the knot. Lower yourself a bit more. Goal is for the knot to be within about 6 inches from your rappelling device when you allow the Shunt/prussik to take your weight. Too close and the knot may jam in your rappelling device. Too far and this technique won't be as efficient as it could be. Now follow these steps:

(1) With your weight now on your Shunt/prussik, remove your rappelling device from the rope and re-rig it below the knot. LOCK IT OFF.

(2) Rig your foot loop ascender on the rope between the knot and your Shunt/prussik.

(3) Stand up in your foot loop and unclip the short tether strand carabiner from the long strand carabiner (or daisy chain loop). Lower yourself until you are weighting either the rappel rope or the long strand of your tether.

(4a) If the tether strands are set up at perfect lengths, you may already be weighting the rappel rope. All you need to do now is remove your Shunt/prussik and your footloop ascender, unlock your rappel device and continue.

(4b) If you find yourself weighting the long tether you will need to stand up in your foot loop again. Release the Shunt/prussik and bring it down until you are weighting the rappel rope. Now remove your Shunt/prussik and your footloop ascender, unlock your rappel device and continue.

Practice this technique at the local crag BEFORE you head out to the canyons.

Have fun. Be safe.

Rich

[stevebrezovec]

Experimented last weekend with quick systems for passing a knot and here's how it went.

- tied ropes together using figure eight knot, but on the top rope end, used a eight-on-a-bight then rethreaded the bottom rope through this, thus creating a bight of rope at the knot. This is for clipping a safety in to.

- Prepared myself with a footloop clipped to an ascender and two slings & locking carabiners hitched to my harness (safety lanyards - pair of cowstails would also do fine).

Simplest system I've used.
1.) Rapped down to the knot and allowed it to jam in my ATC.
2.) clipped in my first safety to the bight at the knot.
3.) Placed ascender on rope.
4.) clipped 2nd safety to rope above ascender (jams at ascender) - also could clip directly to ascender.
5.) stand up in foot loop and (this was the hardest part, as I was freehanging) unclip ATC from rope

at this point I'd like to hear some experience. Is there a way to make it easier to get slack in the rope to unclip your belay device? It's a challenge to hold yourself in the standing position with one arm (holding the ascender) while trying to unclip your descender one handed or with both hands if you're able to akwardly wrap your other arm around the rope to hold yourself upright.

6.) reattach belay device to rope.
7.) unclip ascender safety and ascender.
8.) unclip bight safety.

9.) Continue rappel to the ground.

The whole process probably took less than three minutes without practice. Both myself and a relative newbie friend did it easily in this time. Seemed an improvement over systems I had seen that took as much as 15 minutes.
I recommend and enjoy.
Anyon

[deputc26]

newbie question but couldn't you just take two belay devices and attach one below the knot before disconnecting the one above?

[rcwild]

You've dug up a thread from 2004.

Yes, you could use two rappel devices, but you still need to shift your weight from the one above the knot to the one below the knot.

I have simplified my own knot passing technique: Pre-rig a VT Prusik (valdotain) on the rope above the rappel device. Pull it with you until you are just above the knot and let it grab to hold you. Remove your rappel device from above the knot and move it below the knot. Lock it off. Pull down on your VT Prusik and lower yourself onto your rappel device. Remove the VT Prusik. Continue rappelling.

[dancrev]

I have simplified my own knot passing technique: Pre-rig a VT Prusik (valdotain) ...
I love this method!!! Slick and easy. Requires practice to get the pull-down pressure right for lowering off the valdotain... The first couple times you might get a little surprise :yikes:.

[rcwild]

... you might get a little surprise.

You MUST connect to your VT Prusik using a short tether (i.e. short side of Spelegyca). You MUST re-rig your rappel device immediate below the knot -- AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE. If you don't follow this advice ...

When you pull down on the top of your VT Prusik to release it, you might get a little surprise -- a quick drop. Won't be a problem unless it comes down hard on top of the knot. This shouldn't happen if you follow the advice above.

[DJ Meding]

Alot of you may know this one already but for the newbies, one other method is to not pass the knot. Rig your rappel device just below the knot joining the ropes. The knot should also be at the top of the drop just after a lowering system. This can be either a munter or a figure 8 contigency block or use the ultimate device the Totem. Lower each person until the first rope just touches the ground. At that point stop lowering and lock off your lowering system. Person on rope now raps the rest of the way to the ground.
It's probably faster to do this than waiting for each member of the group to fuddle with passing the knot. Last person down will have to pass the knot unless you can master lowering someone from the ground. This is an even more advanced technique.
Dave

[rcwild]

I'll add ...

We discuss ways to pass a knot, but it is extremely rare. Why do we need to pass a knot?

(1) Rope has a core shot. Tie an alpine butterfly so the core shot is in the loop.

(2) Rope is too short and must be tied together to reach the bottom. ?? Think this one through. If one strand is long enough, we can rig a block and put the knot on the pull side. If we need to tie a knot in both strands, we will have a retrieval problem.

(3) Prefer avoiding a multi-pitch rappel, at least for the majority of the group. Tying two ropes together and using the system Dave described will allow everyone but the last person to avoid the multi-pitch.

[nonot]

"(2) Rope is too short and must be tied together to reach the bottom. ?? Think this one through. If one strand is long enough, we can rig a block and put the knot on the pull side. If we need to tie a knot in both strands, we will have a retrieval problem."

I can think of only 1 way around this but it's quite complicated.

[rcwild]

I can think of only 1 way around this but it's quite complicated.

Simplest way is to rig a retrievable; i.e. macrame. That would mean passing a knot while hanging on a retrievable.

[raymondmiller]

Can you use a rescue 8 and just go over the knot?

[rcwild]

Can you use a rescue 8 and just go over the knot?

You can, but rescue 8s are generally inappropriate for canyoneering. I wouldn't carry one just for the unlikely event I might have to pass a knot.

[deputc26]

Yes, you could use two rappel devices, but you still need to shift your weight from the one above the knot to the one below the knot.

I have simplified my own knot passing technique: Pre-rig a VT Prusik (valdotain) on the rope above the rappel device.

Thanks this method looks good, I was counting on having to support your full weight with one hand while using the other hand to remove the top rappel device which would be strenuous. Your Prusik method looks a lot better I'll have to try it.


You've dug up a thread from 2004..
I went through a lot of the old threads after signing up and was surprised by how much information there was that I was previously oblivious to, thanks for replying to a resurrected thread:beer:

[matt]

Simplest way is to rig a retrievable; i.e. macrame. That would mean passing a knot while hanging on a retrievable.

I agree. However, if a macrame isn't desirable or practical you can run the rope through a small loop of webbing tied to the anchor and block it. Rap, pass knot and at the bottom pull rope back and forth to burn webbing.

[DJ Meding]

I agree. However, if a macrame isn't desirable or practical you can run the rope through a small loop of webbing tied to the anchor and block it. Rap, pass knot and at the bottom pull rope back and forth to burn webbing.

Sarcasm doen't always translate well. Best to let others know with maybe a :thmbdn:

[rcwild]

Sarcasm doen't always translate well. Best to let others know with maybe a :thmbdn:

Actually, Dave, I was thinking it was a pretty good idea. Back and forth pull might be a little tough in some circumstances, but the rope weight will aid in the sawing action.

When I was teaching rock climbing, I often demonstrated how easy it is to saw through a piece of webbing with a rope going back and forth -- to illustrate how stupid it is to set up top ropes without carabiner interface.

[yyakk7]

Kurt and Steve demo'd this web/rope sawing process at the BSW in Moab. Impressed me enough not to do this!!!

[DJ Meding]

If all you are doing is sawing back and forth are you not also hurting the rope?

[rcwild]

If all you are doing is sawing back and forth are you not also hurting the rope?

You will cut through the webbing because the friction is being focused on one single point. Friction on the rope is spread over the section that is being rubbed (maybe 5-6 feet). At most you will see some slight burnishing on the rope. You will be amazed at how fast you can cut through the webbing.

[DJ Meding]

You will cut through the webbing because the friction is being focused on one single point. Friction on the rope is spread over the section that is being rubbed (maybe 5-6 feet). At most you will see some slight burnishing on the rope. You will be amazed at how fast you can cut through the webbing.

A slight burnishing? Is that like "a little pregnant"?

[rcwild]

A slight burnishing? Is that like "a little pregnant"?

Silly boy.

[matt]

Sarcasm doen't always translate well. Best to let others know with maybe a :thmbdn:

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I've done this before and as far as I know it's the best fix to the problem at hand.

And don't worry about damaging your rope. It won't do much to it. Besides, when you're having to tie three ropes together to get out of a canyon then you are desperate and have more important things to worry about.

[DJ Meding]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I've done this before and as far as I know it's the best fix to the problem at hand.

And don't worry about damaging your rope. It won't do much to it. Besides, when you're having to tie three ropes together to get out of a canyon then you are desperate and have more important things to worry about.

My apologies also. I guess that perceiving sarcasm correctly is just as difficult. Now that the technique has been varified as a viable option in the correct situation I will add it to the toolbox.

[ewestesen]

I have simplified my own knot passing technique: Pre-rig a VT Prusik (valdotain) on the rope above the rappel device. Pull it with you until you are just above the knot and let it grab to hold you. Remove your rappel device from above the knot and move it below the knot. Lock it off. Pull down on your VT Prusik and lower yourself onto your rappel device. Remove the VT Prusik. Continue rappelling.


Is there a particular advantage to the VT Prusik here? Would a Bachman, a boring old prusik tied with 6-7 mm cord, or Klemheist also be a good option?

[possum]

Is there a particular advantage to the VT Prusik here? Would a Bachman, a boring old prusik tied with 6-7 mm cord, or Klemheist also be a good option?


The advantage of the VT Prussik is that it (fairly) easily releases under load. So theoretically all you need to pass the knot is the VT Prussik, no need to shift your weight with another ropegrab.

[rcwild]

Is there a particular advantage to the VT Prusik here? Would a Bachman, a boring old prusik tied with 6-7 mm cord, or Klemheist also be a good option?

Just adding to Kyle's response ...

Bachman, Prusik, Klemheist, etc. won't work like a VT Prusik. Some friction hitches won't release at all under load. Others will release, but not in a controlled manner.

The old "standard" method for knot passing involved using three friction hitches and basically ascending in reverse. VT Prusik makes the process much much simpler, but does require practice to get the lengths just right. I have performed quite a few rescues during knot passing practice.

[ewestesen]

I have performed quite a few rescues during knot passing practice.

Thus I will practice low to the ground somewhere near home.

[canyoncaver]

Is there a particular advantage to the VT Prusik here? Would a Bachman, a boring old prusik tied with 6-7 mm cord, or Klemheist also be a good option?


I can think of some particular DIS-advantages.

One, sliding down a dry rope on a VT could cause it to melt. You don't need me to tell you what would happen then.

Two, the VT knot-passing method as the ACA teaches it leaves you hanging from only ONE piece of gear while you re-rig your descender. Canyoneers should be aware of the potential consequences before adopting this method. Are you comfortable hanging from one prusik 150 feet off the ground?

It is much safer to use two ascenders (prusiks, VT's, whatever...) to cross a knot. That way if something blows out, you are still attached. A two ascender method is described at the beginning of this thread.

[dancrev]

One, sliding down a dry rope on a VT could cause it to melt. You don't need me to tell you what would happen then.

You can attach the VT just before you encounter the knot (when it's about arms length away or so). Definitely not a good idea to melt it on your way down!


Two, the VT knot-passing method as the ACA teaches it leaves you hanging from only ONE piece of gear while you re-rig your descender.
I don't have a problem with it. When you are rappelling on your descender, is that not also just one piece of gear?

[rcwild]

Good points, Andy, but some important details should be added:

1. If it is a long rappel, you should not rig the VT at the start of the rappel. Rappel to within a couple feet of the knot. Stop and lock off. Rig the VT. Unlock. You will only be sliding down the rope a few feet.

2. While you can make a VT with a normal nylon Prusik cord, I don't recommend it except in emergencies. If you are only sliding a few feet, a thin nylon cord will probably be okay, but I feel better with a real VT. Minimum 8mm. The VTs that I use and sell in my shop are specially made with a Technora sheath. Technora has a melting point well above 900 degrees F.

3. I do feel comfortable hanging from a single piece of gear. We all do it on a regular basis. One carabiner. One rap device. One rope. If conditions make you uncomfortable with any piece of gear, it should be backed up.

4. The real issue with using a VT is practicing to make sure you get the lengths and the number of wraps correct. When I have performed rescues, it has been because: (a) people wrapped their VT too loose, which caused them to slide too fast on top of the knot; (b) people re-rigged their rappel device too low below the knot, which caused them to come down on top of the knot with their VT before their weight loaded the rappel device.

[ewestesen]

I heard a handy way to have a back up when passing a knot (please respond if you think this is a bad idea) is to tie a butterfly knot at the end of the first rope BEFORE you toss it down knotted to the second rope. When you get close enough to passing the knot, you can clip in to the butterfly knot real quick before setting up your VT for passing the knot. It's a quick easy little backup plan for your VT.

[ewestesen]

vLWLfZSwdH4

found this on youtube. I see kind of how it works-- what's in the biner? Looks like a pulley maybe?

[Kirk]

I heard a handy way to have a back up when passing a knot (please respond if you think this is a bad idea) is to tie a butterfly knot at the end of the first rope BEFORE you toss it down knotted to the second rope. When you get close enough to passing the knot, you can clip in to the butterfly knot real quick before setting up your VT for passing the knot. It's a quick easy little backup plan for your VT.

If there's a butterfly, pre-rigged or protecting a core shot, one might clip a safety tether and foot loop at the same time (both in the same 'biner), and not need a VT.

:rockon:

[rcwild]

If there's a butterfly, pre-rigged or protecting a core shot, one might clip a safety tether and foot loop at the same time (both in the same 'biner), and not need a VT.

Uh ... if the butterfly was tied to protect a core shot ... perhaps best not to hang on it.

:rockon:

[dancrev]

If I felt like I needed a backup I would probably just rappel down to the knot, lock off, tie a figure eight on a bight of rope below the knot and clip into that... then proceed with the VT, etc. Really no need to tie it ahead of time. That only helps the first person anyway. The first will need to untie it to finish the rappel, requiring everyone else to tie their own safety knot while hanging.

[thafen]

Looks almost like there is either a pulley or something like a tibloc hooked on the rope but that doesn't make much sense. Not Sure:fishing:

[rcwild]

Looks almost like there is either a pulley or something like a tibloc hooked on the rope but that doesn't make much sense. Not Sure:fishing:

The video shows a tree climbing technique that does use a pulley. Tree climbers have some pretty slick techniques. The VT is tied a little too loose for actual use. Working fine for the video demo, but not sure it would hold with full body weight hanging on it vertically.

[rcwild]

If I felt like I needed a backup I would probably just rappel down to the knot, lock off, tie a figure eight on a bight of rope below the knot and clip into that... then proceed with the VT, etc. Really no need to tie it ahead of time. That only helps the first person anyway. The first will need to untie it to finish the rappel, requiring everyone else to tie their own safety knot while hanging.

It depends ...

If you need to tie two ropes together and pass that knot, tie a figure eight on a bight in the end of the upper rope. Thread the end of the lower rope through the figure eight so you have three strands of rope in the knot instead of two. When you arrive at the figure eight loop, either clip into it as your backup and pass with VT or whatever or use the system Kirk described.

If you tie a butterfly knot to isolate a core shot and need to pass that knot, don't clip into that loop. Use your VT or other favorite knot-passing technique. Tying a second knot above the core shot knot will require you to pass two knots. Not very efficient. If you want a knot as back-up while passing the core shot knot, tie a safety knot below as Dan described.

[Kirk]

Uh ... if the butterfly was tied to protect a core shot ... perhaps best not to hang on it.

:rockon:

Agreed! That part of my post was supposed to go to the "Death Wish" thread...

:)

[SirKnotcelot]

but I feel better with a real VT. Minimum 8mm.

On what -- I was just scanning one canyoneering-ropes
source and saw some VERY skinny ropes, 8.0mm minimum!
You'd feel comfortable with a VT on this, how many wraps?
(Arborists are typically tying to 11-13mm with 8mm cords,
IIRC -- quite some contrast in relative sizes!) How supple
is this Technora+<?-core> stuff?

Btw, have these new, HMPE-cored skinny ropes been tested
with knots? I've just been watching some videos of knots
just sliding away in Dyneema 12-strand, the likely core material
here, and can't help but wonder at how little load that suggested
Fig.8-with-Eye ropes-joint might be.

-SirKnotcelot*

[ewestesen]

Oh man! That VT prusik is coooool! I just tried it out this afternoon passing knot, real slick. You do have to get the length right so you can transfer your weight on to your rappel device again... will have to do it a few more times before I feel half way comfortable doing it though.

[ewestesen]

Was showing the VT Prusik to my dad today for passing knots (I ordered two and we hadn't gotten a chance to play around with them on the same day). We really liked it. One thing we found helpful was to extend the VT a little by throwing in a canyon quickdraw. This gave us a little more space to work.

Also, I've seen a couple of ways to tie the VT Prusik. I pray I'm not missing this earlier on in the thread- what are some of the preferred methods for tying it? Any diagrams or instructionals around that you'd recommend?

I've been doing it with 3-4 wraps at the top, and then maybe 3 'criss cross' wraps where the ends of the VT are crossing each other, then clipping the ends into my biner. Hope that makes sense. Is that what most everyone is doing more or less?

EDIT: Ha! I did miss it! Those training videos! I didn't even think of it.

c9LR9YlWsqk

[thafen]

On what -- I was just scanning one canyoneering-ropes
source and saw some VERY skinny ropes, 8.0mm minimum!
You'd feel comfortable with a VT on this, how many wraps?
(Arborists are typically tying to 11-13mm with 8mm cords,
IIRC -- quite some contrast in relative sizes!) How supple
is this Technora+<?-core> stuff

-SirKnotcelot*

It works very well and is supple. I use a VT cord on an 8mm canyon pro ds and it works very effectively. In fact using the wrap two and then french braid (valdotain) its a little too much grab and usually have to just use a looser french braid. Not sure what the arborist are using for their VT cord, but I have seen some trees in the canyons too.

[Mike Bowers]

I practiced this technique over and over. It's tricky to get the right length so you can take the weight off your prusik tied off to your locking carabiner. I found that the closer you lock off to the knot the better. Once you get your knot passed your device, lock off just under the knot. This will prevent you from having to stand up and adjust a second time. PRACTICE this until you have it down. I have a rig settup in my garage that is great for trying out tricks like this. You need about 10 ft, as you will drop further down once you pass the knot. This is also good practice for getting off a prusik knot. Alot of beginners will panic when they cannot unlock the grip of the prusik knot. Also great if you need to take a picture while on a rappel, although there are other ways of doing this. Here is a good video put together using a rescue figure 8 device. http://youtu.be/ngntmjq1ZZg