What is a 'biner block?

[rcwild]

There are several reasons for blocking the rope:


By blocking the rope, you will be rappelling on only one strand of rope, keeping the other strand free in case of an emergency.
Reduces or eliminates the twisting that occurs with two ropes, thus making rope retrieval easier.
Allows adjustable positioning of an edge protection pad on the free rope.
Allows re-ascending without re-rigging the rope.


A 'biner (carabiner) block is set up using a carabiner to block the rope on one side of the anchor so one strand is fixed. You can use a clove hitch on the "backbone" of the carabiner to do this. Obviously, the carabiner has to be bigger than the rappel ring or screw link that the rope is passing through.

<img src="http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/biner_block.jpg">

You can also use a knot to block the rope. Tie a figure eight knot on a bight and clip the carabiner into the loop as a safety. If you also clip the biner through the inside of the knot itself, the knot will be easier to untie later.

<img src="http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/knot_block.jpg">

In this photo, a carabiner has been inserted through the figure eight knot and into the bight. It is there to make the knot easier to untie once you retrieve your rope.

<img src="http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/knot_block_biner.jpg">

The last photo illustrates a variation of a knot block. The rope can still be retrieved. When the rope strand on the right is pulled, the carabiner slides down the rope.

This system works, but should not be used when the rope is in current. The force of the water can twist the two ropes together, making retrieval difficult or impossible.

<img src="http://www.canyoneering.net/content_img/knot_block_clip.jpg">

[funintheslots]

My partner and I learned this the (almost) hard way - we were most comfortable with the knot block, even though we had just learned the biner block.

On our first canyon with our new 8mm Canyon Pro rope - we set a knot block (figure 8) in a rap ring, and as my partner descended, I watched the knot pull through - a combination of small diameter rope and a larger than normal rap ring (or quick link; can't remember for sure).

Fortunately for us, there was a low angle place for my partner to stop while I reset the block using a biner block.

Fortunately for me, the movement occurred before I followed my partner - I outweighed him substantially, and was therefore even more likely to pull the knot through. I probably wouldn't be writing this elsewise. :(

We never again used a knot block with the Canyon Pro.

The biner block also seems like it will clean on the rope pulldown more often than a figure 8 knot block...

[hank_moon]

the few times i've used a knot block, i found the knot very hard to untie. i would only use it if no 'biner could be spared.

funintheslots: very scary story :eek: lucky indeed...

[mtngoat59102]

It's fun to watch the looks on peoples face the first time they see a clove hitch on a biner. I can't count the number of times I've heard, 'Is that safe' or 'do you use that a lot' over my shoulder after I tie it.

Knots are fine if the rope dia./kont/and rap ring all match up but a biner is so much less work.

Neil

[Xtopher]

One drawback on the biner block is that it may snag on retrieval if the canyon wall surface is craggy or rocky. In this case everyone in the group goes down on one strand and maintains all the benefits that Rich mentioned, and the last person undoes the knot, retrieves the carabiner and goes down on the two strands being careful to separate them to avoid twisting.

[hikerbiker25]

Question about the biner block -
Doesn't it damage the biner when you pull the rope after rappeling and it bounces off the rock on the way down? One of the fundamental rules of climbing is to always retire dropped gear - repeatedly using a biner that has been effectively dropped over and over again makes me a little nervous. Any comments?

[rcwild]

Question about the biner block -
Doesn't it damage the biner when you pull the rope after rappeling and it bounces off the rock on the way down? One of the fundamental rules of climbing is to always retire dropped gear - repeatedly using a biner that has been effectively dropped over and over again makes me a little nervous. Any comments?

There are quite a few "fundamental rules" of climbing that have been passed along based on old information that is not necessarily applicable today.

Back in the days when everyone used steel carabiners, it was advised to retire them if they were dropped because they may have been fractured. Most of us are now using aluminum carabiners. Aluminum is more malleable than steel, so much less prone to fractures.

Not suggesting you keep using your aluminum carabiner after dropping it 100 feet. But when you pull a 'biner block down, it isn't free-falling and crashing against the rock. It is being dragged across the rock and/or falling WITH the rope. It's rare to hear more than a light "click" if it actually hits the rock.

[charlybldr]

Aluminum carabiners are subject to micro cracks from impact too. If you drop one any great distance it's probably a good idea to retire it.

But when you're pulling your rope using a 'biner block, the 'biner never falls any great distance. At the beginning of the pull the 'biner is at the top of the drop. By the time the end of the rope pulls through the rapid at the anchor and the rope falls, the 'biner is only a few feet off the ground if not already in your hand.

[rcwild]

Aluminum carabiners are subject to micro cracks from impact too. If you drop one any great distance it's probably a good idea to retire it.

This is another one of those areas requiring judgement calls. I've seen people drop a carabiner a few feet and become frantic about it. I've seen others drop them dozens of feet -- ping, ping, ping as it bounces off the rocks -- then pick it up and clip it back to their gear loop.

What's the advice coming from gear manufacturers nowadays? Was I wrong to state that aluminum is less prone to fracturing than steel?

[ratagonia]

This is another one of those areas requiring judgement calls. I've seen people drop a carabiner a few feet and become frantic about it. I've seen others drop them dozens of feet -- ping, ping, ping as it bounces off the rocks -- then pick it up and clip it back to their gear loop.

What's the advice coming from gear manufacturers nowadays? Was I wrong to state that aluminum is less prone to fracturing than steel?

Neither the steel used in carabiners or the aluminum alloys are subject to micro-cracking. There may be over-heat treated steel or titanium alloys that exhibit it, but the theory of micro-cracking only came up when they started using fancy ceramics for jet engine turbines.

You can drop your carabiners thousands of feet onto granite, and if they still open and close smoothly, they are fine to use. If you feel uncomfortable with this advice, then go ahead and retire them, or send them to me.

Can I prove this? There is an engineering argument - aluminum alloys (might be exceptions, but 7075-T6 is not one of them) and ordinary steel alloys (as used in carabiners) are not the type of material that exhibits micro-cracking. There is an evidence argument - while working at Black Diamond for 12 years, we NEVER saw a carabiner that exhibited any form of micro-cracking or loss of strength from being dropped (while still functional), including quite a few dropped the full height of El Cap (3000 feet). But no, I cannot PROVE that all biners over all time will never exhibit loss of strength.

And just to cover all the bases, carabiners dropped from outer space, on re-entry, will heat up substantially which will screw up the heat treating. There will likely be ablation of material off the outside also, so I advise against using biners that are dropped from outer space. Those should definitely be retired.

Perhaps Brian knows of some examples of hidden micro-cracking in conventional alloys.

Tom

[rcwild]

Neither the steel used in carabiners or the aluminum alloys are subject to micro-cracking.

Anecdotal -- Mountain rescue team marks dropped gear with red tape and sets aside for later x-ray (use of machine donated by Allied Signal). Cracks did show up in steel carabiners on (allbeit rare) occasions. Don't know of any showing up in aluminum carabiners (but I wasn't privy to all of the tests).

Early to mid 90s.

[charlybldr]

Neither the steel used in carabiners or the aluminum alloys are subject to micro-cracking.

Tom speaks from experience here and I see no reason to argue. I don't fret dropped 'biners much either.

That said, carabiner manufacturers will continue to protect themselves by recommending replacing dropped 'biners. If you've dropped a 'biner from a significant height and are concerned about its safety, send it to Tom and buy a new one.

Hey, it's cheap insurance.

[sonnylawrence]

Send it to me and I will break it for you. I will bet a head of time exactly where it will break, sight unseen.

[hikerbiker25]

Does anybody have any experience using webbing in combination with a biner block instead of normal rope? Does the clove hitch hold, and are you able to control the rappel when using webbing as well as you would on a rope?

[rcwild]

Does anybody have any experience using webbing in combination with a biner block instead of normal rope? Does the clove hitch hold, and are you able to control the rappel when using webbing as well as you would on a rope?

I'm curious why you want to know.

[ratagonia]

Does anybody have any experience using webbing in combination with a biner block instead of normal rope? Does the clove hitch hold, and are you able to control the rappel when using webbing as well as you would on a rope?

There are many different types, sizes, materials, construction, etc. of webbing. There might a combination of webbing and device that actually rappels fairly well. Most people choose rope for rappelling with because that's what the rappel devices are designed for, and something that is round seems to work better than something that is flat.

Tom

[hikerbiker25]

I'm curious why you want to know.
Rich,

Sometimes when doing semi-technical canyons there are no real rappels, but it is recommended to take some extra webbing to use a handline, for lowering packs, etc...
Sometimes when taking really inexperiened people down canyons, they might prefer to rappel, or to be lowered down. I was just curious if it would be safe to do this with webbing if needed, if that was all I had available at the time. Sometimes I take it because it is usually a little cheaper and lighter. I would normally prefer to use rope, as long as I had it available.

[rcwild]

Guessed that might be what you had in mind.

I've used webbing frequently for handlines, but if I know or suspect there will be rappels, I'd rather take rope.

If the webbing is for a handline, there are plenty of ways to rig it without a block. You're only likely to set up a block if you're rappelling, with webbing and a ring on the anchor. Take rope.

If the other members of your group are inexperienced, it would make more sense for you – as the experienced person – to belay or lower them (with webbing if that's what you have with you), than for them to experiment with rappelling on webbing.

[shane]

We have been doing some new routes lately where the anchor is often 50' to 100' behind the pour-over. The problem is we pull our ropes and the rope wears through the sheath at the biner block from dragging such a long distance over the sandstone. Anyone else experienced this? Anyone have a reasonable solution figured out?

We dinged two ropes this past weekend because of this, and it's not the first time we have experianced the problem.

[rcwild]

Try using a knot block instead of a carabiner block.

[shane]

I'll give it a try.... but this experimenting could get expensive.

The problem is the knot on the biner forces all the wear to one small high friction spot. A knot block will probably help, particularly if the knot would roll a little as it was pulled and help spread the wear. But I'm still thinking the high spot on the knot block might experience the same high wear spot?

I'm also thinking losing the weight of the biner adding to the wear might be an advantage of the knot block?

[ratagonia]

I'll give it a try.... but this experimenting could get expensive.

The problem is the knot on the biner forces all the wear to one small high friction spot. A knot block will probably help, particularly if the knot would roll a little as it was pulled and help spread the wear. But I'm still thinking the high spot on the knot block might experience the same high wear spot?

I'm also thinking losing the weight of the biner adding to the wear might be an advantage of the knot block?

Like the system Mr. Nelson (was it?) talked about on Morning Glory, setting up a two-stage retrievable system might help. Set up a two-ring retrievable that reaches to the rim, thread the rope through there, rap down, pull the rope, then pull the really long retrievable system.

The "ordinary" ring on each end system can be a problem, because the rings can get stuck. The Omni sling presents a much slimmer profile, but not many people carry a 50 foot omnisling. You can also use the omnisling 50 feet back from the edge, and after release, dragging the omnisling and rope across the ground has less impact than pulling a rope because there is a lot less drag.

The new "toggle" omni-sling system seems to work better - easier to pull, yet still secure (with a 9mm rope, or some 8mm ropes, but not smaller) - than the macrame knot or the omni/macrame combo.

Tom

[johnswelchvi]

Shane,

This is exactly the problem I’ve hoped to solve so I can use natural anchors and not rely on having bolts at the canyon lip. Often there is a really solid anchor 50-100 feet back from the drop, but setting a standard ‘biner block or double rope retrieval with most of the rope getting dragged across the canyon lip, the canyon and back down is murder on the rope and the canyon lip. The short segment of rope exposed across the clove hitch weighted by the ‘biner will have this problem compounded.

You could slip a short piece of webbing over the rope as a sheath and then tie the knot block or ‘biner block. That might protect the rope. Have to be careful that the clove hitch still sets though.

There are a couple of other releasable anchor systems that might help. I’ve been using the Janus for the last couple years and had really good success. We used it on at least four drops with reasonably long distances from the anchor to the lip: the last drop in Neon, entering the Pine Creek Cathedral from the log jam in the back of the prior room, off the tree into Medieval Chamber, and some random drops in Imlay. Each time, we’ve had good release and the rope pulls easily over the lip as there is little friction on the rope as it bounces down (as opposed to the friction on the rope being pulled up and over the lip). You can also tie in a long webbing extender to the Janus if you’d like to avoid almost all the friction on the rope.

You might also want to think about adapting the dowel anchor or the Slick (if you can get one). All of these require carrying a release line. I’ve been using a 3mm static line with a breaking strength of 700lbs. Wouldn’t rap on it, but it would work as a standard pull cord for your rope off a ‘biner block if you lost a rope and still needed to complete a rap > ½ the length of your rope.

As releasable systems, all of these can release prematurely, making them inherently unstable to one degree or another. The Janus and dowel place increased tension on the release mechanism with increased weight on the rappel line making premature unlikely. Still, it’s an issue.

Good luck. Please share solutions you find.

John

[rcwild]

Solution is getting too complicated.

We use blocks to set rope length and to hold rope in reserve in case someone on rappel needs help. Set the block for everyone in the group except the last person. Last person removes the block and rappels on two strands. Same thing you would do if you were concerned the block (biner or knot) might get stuck in a crack, etc. when pulling.

[wiese]

Shane

Here is a simpler answer, I said this before here in the forums and just recently to john after his email. wall rats have used these forever.

http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1349&page=2
"I don't know how many people are using these, but cut up Gatorade bottles are great."

if you are dealing with retrievable systems i would recommend them. just drink your water then cut your bottle and use some cord. Simple.

i also got an answer for ya with new systems that unlike John's have ZERO chance of releasing prematurely. not a big fan of things that release when ever "they" like to and things that i cannot tie blindfolded. KISS

XOXOXOX
take care
ERIC WIESE

PS i use a biner/knot block maybe 1/10 rappels, not a big fan.

[johnswelchvi]

Shane –

Two other thoughts –
- Use a knot block and stick an old tube sock over the knot. This will protect the rope's edges and shouldn’t interfere with the knot or the block. (I suppose the tube sock might fall off if you don’t tie it down below the knot – use a rubber band? - and littering a clean canyon with a dirty, old sock would be seriously embarrassing!).

- Why are you using a ‘biner block with the anchor 50-100’ from the drop? I have a partner who loves his Pirana and so we always have to set a block and he raps single stranded. When we’ve had drops 50+ feet from the anchor, we’ve set it up for standard toss 'n go retrieval and then set a stein (stone) knot so he can go on the Pirana single strand. I’ve come down last, double stranded on an ATC after pulling the stein knot.

Yes – KISS

John

[shane]

First off - thanks for all the input......

A little more info for those of you playing along at home.... The anchor was about 150' from the pour-over. The rappel was about 100'. We had a 300' rope, a 125' rope and a 200' pull chord. The anchor was located in a baby bottom smooth bowl so we were not concerned with sticking a rope.

We blocked the 300' rope at 250' and tied the 200' pull chord to the remaining 50'. (the 125' was not used). This left us dragging the biner block for 100'. The anchor point was through a small Rapid.

After giving this a bunch of thought I'm thinking next time I will knot block using an EDK (overhand knot). If things go correctly the EDK should roll to the top and the rope should pull smooth with a lot of surface area so there is no point of high wear.

http://uutah.com/forum/files/123-2333_img__small_.jpg

I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, So carrying guards and such are not something I really want to do. A couple wraps of duct tape would probably cure the wear problem, but who wants to use duct tape? :confused:

[wiese]

LOL, KISS... drink your water, cut bottle, tie knot/biner block, thread pull cord through top of bottle, use pull cord connecting knot/biner block to attack bottle to block.

DONE

just try it once you will see.

if you still don't get it, look in the falcon guides, big wall climbing. Bottles are HEAVEN. free, and you ALWAYS have one with ya.

xoXOXOxo
take care
EW

[shane]

LOL, KISS... drink your water, cut bottle, tie knot/biner block, thread pull cord through top of bottle, use pull cord connecting knot/biner block to attack bottle to block.

I have no doubt the Gatorade bottle would protect the rope, but then what do I use for a pee bottle at night. :eek: :confused:

[wiese]

you still can Shane, with or without a bottom. guarantee you can still pee through the top

EW

[rudy118]

I was wondering if an asymmetrical biner can be used with a clove hitch as a block?

[rcwild]

Because you are only using the backbone of the carabiner, shape is not critical. Oval, D, asymetrical, HMS will all work. I think you'll find there is a difference based on the cross section of the carabiner. Round stock biners (like Attaches) hold clove hitches better than the odd shaped stock used on many of the light-weight climbing biners.