Escaping Potholes

[rcwild]

What are some prefered methods for escaping keeper potholes? I've heard people refer to etriers and bat hooks, and I know what they are; however, I'm not quite sure how to use them.

Depends on the pothole. Dry? How deep is the hole? Filled with water? How deep is the water? Climbable? Some possibilities include:

PARTNER ASSIST
One person simply gives another a boost, stands on shoulders, provides spotting.

CONSTRUCT A LADDER
Use anything found in pothole or above, such as logs and rocks to build a ladder.

KNOT JAMS
A tight, bulky knot is tied in the end of the rope, then tossed over the lip in hopes of snagging in crack.

PACK TOSS
Pack, with rope attached, is tossed over the lip of the pothole to provide a counterweight for climbing.

HOOKS
Hardware of various shapes and sizes used to hook horizontal edges of rock as in aid climbing. Step up into one etrier (ladder made of webbing) attached to first hook. Place another hook and etrier a bit higher, then transfer weight to that etrier, etc.

BAT HOOKS
BAT (basically absurd technology) hooks are shaped to fit into shallow drilled holes rather than on natural edges. Used like regular hooks for aid climbing.

BOLT OR PITON LADDER
Etriers are clipped directly onto bolt hangers or pitons. Used like hooks for aid climbing.

CHEATER STICKS
Shock-corded tent poles, avalanche poles, etc. are used to place a loop of rope over an anchor or to place a hook.

[wiese]

Another fun one is a cheater stick/stick clip made from a Sam Splint. And yes u can make a 15+ foot stick clip that holds a carabiner with only a knife and a Sam Splint.

Watch more MacGyver

hummm.. paper clips...

Take care
ERIC WIESE

[charlybldr]

PACK TOSS
Pack, with rope attached, is tossed over the lip of the pothole to provide a counterweight for climbing.

I would like to point out that tossing the pack before entering the pothole is a lot easier than tossing from down in there. Once it has snagged you can send the first guy in to confirm it has hooked. If not, continue tossing from the uphill side or toss additional packs for added weight until the desired result is achieved.

[rcwild]

Another fun one is a cheater stick/stick clip made from a Sam Splint. And yes u can make a 15+ foot stick clip that holds a carabiner with only a knife and a Sam Splint.

Watch more MacGyver

hummm.. paper clips...

Take care
ERIC WIESE

Did a canyon with Dave yesterday. He told me about your MacGyver skills, Eric. Looking forward to learning more about your 3-loop macrame releasable knot chock anchor.

[shane]

I don't see chopping moki steps with a G-pick anywhere on your list http://uutah.com/forum/images/smiles/ne_nau.gif

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/4.gif

[brucefrombryce]

Was in Big Horn Canyon in GSENM and in the first set of narrows came to this pothole (see the attached photo. it doesn't show the top of the pothole on the other side - bad photographer). It was about 12-14 feet deep on both sides and had the stick in the hole that someone may have used as a ladder in dry times. Because of the snow, ice and being solo I chose to back up and climb around. While I did have sufficient rope and webbing to attempt a bag toss or constructing a ladder I felt that the risk wasn't worth it.

But the trail around the slot section led me to a piece of slick rock with extreme exposure and no apparent foot or handholds. So I rigged a rope around a couple of boulders and lowered myself about 4 feet to a narrow ledge below and then was able to walk across the slab with good footholds. The distance was only about 6 feet but had I risked it I probably would not be writing this today.

[ewestesen]

I'm pretty familiar with the different options for pothole escapes, though I've not been through a canyon where I absolutely HAD to use them.

What are some good pothole starter canyons to help me get practice and work up to things?

We're headed into Quandary this weekend, but I'm betting that the technical keeper section is not a great first set of potholes to go through.

[mountain man]

have you thought about trying some easy canyons with small drops in reverse (going up canyon) using pothole escape techniques.

earlier I was thinking of doing my meetup job and have a pothole escape practice day. dust off those old skills for my upcoming trips & find partners. maybe i should schedule one

[kuper]

I want to get into some canyons and work on pot hole escapes but really want to be with someone expierienced. So far I have not had the opportunity. I carry a pot shot with two small Sky hooks attached. Seems to work good in dry practice but I dont have any real application yet

[Spidey]

I have had the opportunity to be the point man on many pothole canyons. Including some that are exceptionally hard. Every method listed has it's place, the important thing is being able to size up the problem quickly and decide which method should be deployed. This only really comes with practice. Don't under estimate the improtance of CREATIVITY. I have used all the standard methods and they are the most common. I have also however used a washed down tree as a pole vault to get over a pot hole in Imlay, I've also used a small stick in much the same fashion as a large bro to give me something to pull up off of. I guess the point is fill the tool box and don't be afraid to use the wrench sitting on the ground next to the tool box. For what it's worth if you have 2-3 pot shots you should be fine to do Quandary direct. Make sure you have at least 3-4 people.

[sonnylawrence]

While I did have sufficient rope and webbing to attempt a bag toss or constructing a ladder I felt that the risk wasn't worth it.

Could you specify what risk you are referring to? Thanks

[bjp]

Has anyone ever attempted using a water bag as a pothole escape tool?

The thing I'm envisioning would basically be a large sealed lightweight dry bag with the end of a long length of tubing glued into the top and a utility net wrapped around the outside. One would ball up the net+bag, clip a rope to it, then throw the assembly over the lip of the pothole while keeping the ends of the rope and tubing. Then, the end of the tubing would be connected to a small pump and the person in the pothole would pump water into the bag. I figure a decent small pump would let most people pump about a gallon per minute, so a 30-pound weight could be created in about 4 minutes of pumping.

The advantage of this system would be that one wouldn't have to throw any heavy objects over a potentially tall lip. The bag could be partially pre-filled with water if a heavier toss was possible, but in that case the use of pot shots would probably be preferred.

Is the problem with this idea the pumping time, the volume and weight of the extra equipment, the availability of the extra equipment, the fact that it just wouldn't be needed very often, or something else?

--Ben

[adkramoo]

Has anyone ever attempted using a water bag as a pothole escape tool?

The thing I'm envisioning would basically be a large sealed lightweight dry bag with the end of a long length of tubing glued into the top and a utility net wrapped around the outside. One would ball up the net+bag, clip a rope to it, then throw the assembly over the lip of the pothole while keeping the ends of the rope and tubing. Then, the end of the tubing would be connected to a small pump and the person in the pothole would pump water into the bag. I figure a decent small pump would let most people pump about a gallon per minute, so a 30-pound weight could be created in about 4 minutes of pumping.



Various water methods have been used over the years and some are being played with presently

Here is a video of Jenny West's idea, in conjunction with the sandtrap. Turn the sound way up. My first try at a video. ;-)

http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterBagVideo#

A discussion of some of the past uses of water anchors and their challenges were discussed here

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/message/56465

I'll copy my parts of that thread for the folks who don't belong over there

It has been a good year for retrievable anchor ideas. I hope no one is thinking
that many of us are advocating these for the established trade routes. On less
visited canyons and explorations, the sandtrap in particular, has been a
fantastic new tool. Easy to use, safe when used properly and with almost no
impacts. The level of confidence it has added to our group, going out on
explorations is large. It seems crazy to leave home without it.

Many fret coming to the drop with no chockstones, no cracks, arches, bridges
etc. The smooth anchorless drop. The sandtrap slid in and covers this common
challenging type spot sans hauling rocks and wood either up or down canyon.

But another type of scenario weighted on our minds. What about a series of
potholes, with water to the brim? Many of these spots open themselves up to
jumps and partner assist captures, but others do not. What then? In a Glen
Canyon descent in early May we were able to do something new. The sandtrap can
be set well back of the rappel and it will pull over successive pothole lips,
even imposing ones, quite easily. So on this particular trip, we picked a
pothole that was small and back a bit, took off our helmets......yes, another
new helmet application!......and dipped them into this small jacuzzi sized pot
(The smallest one there) and started to bail water. It took 125 helmets full of
water dished out, in 10 minutes, to bring the full pothole down 20 inches.
Viola, excellent sandtrap anchor lip!! It was a bit trickier getting the sand
from upcanyon over to the trap. Dry sand empties so much easier than the wet
stuff and as such, more reliably. Mark tried to use his pack as a ferry and this
can work, with some fore thought, we believe. Stuff is heavy and balance is
tricky. We relied on Aaron swimming with a 20 pound potshot full of sand, in
front of him and above his head. Try swimming a 20 foot pool doing that!
IMPRESSIVE strength. The rap worked like a charm

Still, many have been toying with ideas for water used as an anchor. The
dromadory bags (three used at a time, I heard) were used by the Allen group as
far back as the 1980's I think? They would fill them up and anchor off of them
and the last man opened the valve and rapped. The 1 ml spout would take 12-15
minutes or so to empty, so it was very slow. Hank Moon recently did some timing
experiments with the 4 ml spout and the bag emptied in 20-30 seconds. Too too
fast for my taste. So I wonder? 3ml spout? 2.5 ml spout? How long for that? I
would be comfortable going off something like this if I had 2 full minutes. Make
sure you don't get anything stuck in your devise!! Last man at risk (LAMAR) type
of thing for sure, but seems reasonable if tested with back ups.

So as often happens, when new ideas are tossed around, it is fertile ground for
new ideas to sprout up in people's minds. Here is my first attempt at a video
ever. I think you will have to turn the volume up high to hear Jenny Hall West
and her releasable water idea for inside a sandtrap. Seems like a good idea. I
am impressed too that some more seasoned folks can so freely embrace new
concepts, jump in and participate in innovation. I know that I can struggle with
"new" ideas on a knee jerk type of reaction. Kudos to the open minded. Link
below.
Ram

http://picasaweb.google.com/aramv14/WaterBagVideo#5477484498946189938

Ram

[bjp]

Thanks Ram -- It looks like water bags have a pretty extensive history as retrievable anchors; I'll bet "setting the fuse" by opening the valve for the last man at risk can be pretty nerve-wracking!

Have you heard of the reverse process being used where an unfilled bag is tossed over the lip of a pothole and then filled by remote through a tube in order to create a pothole-escape anchor?

[adkramoo]

Thanks Ram -- It looks like water bags have a pretty extensive history as retrievable anchors; I'll bet "setting the fuse" by opening the valve for the last man at risk can be pretty nerve-wracking!

Have you heard of the reverse process being used where an unfilled bag is tossed over the lip of a pothole and then filled by remote through a tube in order to create a pothole-escape anchor?


I have heard of the idea of pumping a bag full, but can't recall from where or if it was actually used? As for use as pothole escape tool......one of the main issues has always been....getting whatever your using far enough over the down canyon lip. Potshots have always done this well, especially the newer ones with the reinforced seems. I'm just thinking that an empty water bag would be hard to get distance on with a throw and if it was partially filled, for ballast, it would be vulnerable to failure. Its a clever idea, but thinking that in a canyon environment, the less moving parts the better. Keeping it simple. There is so much room for invention in anchoring, so YMMV
Ram

[mountain man]

Kurt once did a canyon that had a pothole. partner wasn't gathering material along the way and no material around the pothole to put in a pot shot. so they took a dry bag filled it with water and put that in a potshot. search the form he wrote a trip report on a "liquid potshot"

[bjp]

Liquid potshot thread here (http://www.canyoneering.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2772). Sounds like the biggest obstacle for tube-filling a water bag as a pothole escape anchor is probably the complexity and number of parts as Ram mentions. But, I'm a guy who likes the idea of using a wireless sonar unit to depth-check pools before jumping, so I'll report back if I ever have a chance to try this idea :)

[Endo]

Has anyone ever attempted using a water bag as a pothole escape tool?
(SNIP)
--Ben

I've been tossing this exact same idea around in my head for a while. But since I live in AZ I don't get to see a lot of potholes in my canyoneering, so I haven't had a chance to play with the idea. If you were lucky, you might even be able to get it to siphon into your bag.

Just out of curiosity, what type of pump were thinking about using for this? I was thinking either a manual peristaltic pump or even simpler, a fuel-type bulb pump.

Joe

[canyon rat]

You just took all the excitement out of getting trapped!

[bjp]

Just out of curiosity, what type of pump were thinking about using for this? I was thinking either a manual peristaltic pump or even simpler, a fuel-type bulb pump.
Estimating rough numbers, I think using just a fuel-type bulb pump would take pretty miserably long to fill the bag enough to get out of the pothole. Maybe useful in a situation where nothing else was available, but if you're equipped with an elaborate hose-fill system, you probably have something else available :) I was thinking about a barrel pump or a peristaltic pump, though I haven't heard that term before. Even with those, I think it would still take a good 5 minutes or so to fill the bag.