NooB seeks advice

[sniperears]

Hi,
I'm thinking of getting "geared up" to do some canyoneering, well, some "more technical canyoneering" actually. I'm no stranger to the back country of Zion N.P. But I've never had "real" decending, ascending gear, so I guess I've never done any "real" backcountry exploring (particular interest in slot canyons).

My questions are these:
1-does anyone have a problem using a dynamic rope for reppelling, ascending (not climbing per se)? I own a Sterling Evolution Kosmos 60m dynamic dry rope. Should I invest in a canyon rope? or is it ok to use?

2-What's the going technique for pull down these days? Are people doubling the rope and descending off both then just pulling? Or is a pull cord a better option? What about the tie-off? Knot or 'biner based?

I'm sure these questions have probably been answered. I spent 45mins searching and reading, found lots of good material but not specific answers.

Thanks,
S.C.

[Kirk]

Hi sniperears,

I've only been doing this for a year or so, but from where I sit:

1) Your rope will be "OK" for initial experimenting, but if you have any interest in canyons of moderate (or longer) size, longer raps and wet canyons, you would do well to consider Utah Tom's (aka Ratagonia on this site) rope or the Bluewater Canyon series. Dynamic ropes will bounce you more than a static rope on longer raps, and unnecessarily shock load your anchor. They are also heavier and especially uncomfortably so when they soak up water - like a sponge. Static rope is also much easier to ascend :D .

2) There's a bit more to it than that. As Rich says, 80-90% of the time it'll probably be a block. However, depending on the group size, expertise, and your location, you may need to 'biner block, knot block, rap double, or set up a contingency knot. I usually 'biner block for the group, and rap double if going last and sometimes (when ropes are tied together for length - double EDK!) bring the knot over the lip to keep it from catching on the pull.

Some other things to think about may be:
- consider your natural anchor building skills with respect to your canyon,
- 'biner blocking the knot for the group to keep it from loading until the last one goes,
- considering the safety of using multiple ropes (redundancy and resources) instead of a rap rope and pull cord,
- when to use a contingency knot or not
- why you might want to have extra rope on hand (instead of just a rap rope and pull cord) and how you deploy it for different raps, and why.

This activity is a little different from climbing and scrambling. In climbing, you've already ascended the route, so you know what it takes to exit. In scrambling, you never go anywhere you can't scramble out of. In canyoneering, you'll be taking your gear into a slot that might be impossible to exit if you don't rig and pull correctly on each rap :eek: . I recommend you either canyon with someone smart and safe who knows how to set these up and when to use them, or take the ACA Technical Canyoneering course (or similar). A little knowledge and experience goes a long way.

Good luck - be safe, and have fun!

[Paul Nelson]

Dynamic ropes will bounce you more than a static rope on longer raps, and unnecessarily shock load your anchor. They are also heavier and especially uncomfortably so when they soak up water - like a sponge. Static rope is also much easier to ascend :D .



Actually, a dynamic rope absorbs energy through stretch and can reduce shock load on an anchor, and a person’s body. That is why climbers use dynamic ropes. As for absorbing water both static and dynamic nylon ropes absorbs water and will become heavier. Polyester does not absorb water, so a rope will not become as heavy when wet. The Bluewater Canyon rope is a static nylon core with a polyester sheath, with about 3-5 percent static stretch. The Imay ropes are 100% polyester and have about 1% static stretch.

As a person with prior climbing and caving experience, I found canyoneering specific training extremely valuable and highly recommend this training before attempting difficult canyons. The skills you learn will make you more efficient and may safe your life because when the sun drops, the safety factor changes dramatically.

[sniperears]

Thanks for the info. I actually have and read/review regularly the excellent book "On Rope". I know this doesn't replace proper "real-life" training and therefore I plan on taking the Technical Canyoneering class at Zion Ponderosa Fall 2006. I just wanted to know if I should keep my eyes open for a canyon rope or keep my dynamic. While I'm in Zion, might as well explore a couple canyons, right! :)
What resources are there to go with someone experienced for the first few times? I don't know anyone in the sport. How did you all get started?

SC

[johnswelchvi]

There is nothing wrong with using a dynamic rope in the canyons. You’ll certainly want a dry treated rope so you don’t have to schlep 20 lbs of soggy rope on the hike out. You’ll also want to think very hard before climbing with your dynamic rope after the fine Zion sand works its way into the rope’s core. After some canyon wear, the rope may not be in condition to sustain a long, leader fall. If you are going to do a lot of canyoneering, you will probably want a canyon specific rope. The static lines typically used tend to resist the wear and tear of a canyoneering better than the soft and sensitive dynamic climbing ropes.

The block system is very nice for rope retrieval and can be adapted to a number of situations. You can read more about ‘biner blocks and knot blocks on Tom’s Utah Tech tips site, Cerberus Canyons, the CanyonWiki, and on multiple threads on this site. I’ve liked using a ‘biner block in conjunction with a rope bag. Run the rope through the anchor. Pull out enough rope to reach the bottom of the rap. Block the rope. Toss the rope. Toss the rope bag. Rap double stranded or single stranded on the strand opposite the block (the one fixed by the block). Once down, pull the rope and restuff. This way you only pull out the rope you need and you don’t have to uncoil, untangle, rap and recoil the entire rope with each pull. Also, with wet raps, the ‘biner block can be used to fix the rope length just beyond the water level. This way you can rap right off the end of the rope and swim away without the worry of disconnecting while treading water (ah the dangers of dropping your rap device in a deep pool of murky water).

There are many more diverse means of setting and using a ‘biner block. But you can read about them elsewhere.

Oh yeah, if using a Clove hitch, always be sure to set the knot tightly on the spine of the ‘biner. Somewhere here there was mention of a loosely tied hitch that slipped when weighted. :eek:

[hank_moon]

if ya don't care about using your dynamic rope for climbing again, go ahead and use it. But if you want to use it again for climbing, I'd recommend getting or borrowing a static rope for canyon use. No reason to mess up a perfectly good dynamic rope...oh, but maybe it's a beater?

[ratagonia]

Thanks for the info. I actually have and read/review regularly the excellent book "On Rope". I know this doesn't replace proper "real-life" training and therefore I plan on taking the Technical Canyoneering class at Zion Ponderosa Fall 2006.


As a person with prior climbing and caving experience, I found canyoneering specific training extremely valuable and highly recommend this training before attempting difficult canyons. The skills you learn will make you more efficient and may safe your life because when the sun drops, the safety factor changes dramatically.


You will notice that Paul said, 'as an experienced caver and climber, he found canyon specific training invaluable'. (paraphrase). As a climber of 25 years experience, including summiting El Cap twice, I learned more about ropework in two courses with Rich than I did as a climber. My experience is that experienced climbers and cavers CAN make good canyoneers, after we have unlearned them all their bad habits. Studying the revered book "On Rope" will provide you with very little of the kind of information and the skills you need to safely descend canyons.



I just wanted to know if I should keep my eyes open for a canyon rope or keep my dynamic. While I'm in Zion, might as well explore a couple canyons, right! :)
What resources are there to go with someone experienced for the first few times? I don't know anyone in the sport. How did you all get started?
SC

You are IN LUCK! One of the nice things about canyoneering is that Noobs can hook into trips with experienced people and everyone has a good time. Zion is probably the easiest place to hook up for trips, once the season begins (May 15th?). Helps if you have a wetsuit, and a shuttle vehicle.

The best place to look for partners is on the Canyons Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/canyons/

Another way to get hooked in is to take that ACA class as soon as possible. You will meet people in the class, and you can then participate in ACA Rendezvouses. You will (probably) also have the skills to be a safe member of a canyoneering party, thus it will be easier for you to get yourself invited on other trips.

Tom Jones
Canyoneering USA

[ratagonia]

There is nothing wrong with using a dynamic rope in the canyons. You’ll certainly want a dry treated rope so you don’t have to schlep 20 lbs of soggy rope on the hike out. You’ll also want to think very hard before climbing with your dynamic rope after the fine Zion sand works its way into the rope’s core. After some canyon wear, the rope may not be in condition to sustain a long, leader fall. If you are going to do a lot of canyoneering, you will probably want a canyon specific rope. The static lines typically used tend to resist the wear and tear of canyoneering better than the soft and sensitive dynamic climbing ropes.


I'll agree with most of what John says, but...

If your rope is a nice rope, it would be a shame to ruin it canyoneering. One trip through a canyon, and I would not lead on it.

Dynamic climbing ropes are big and heavy, and get bigger and heavier when wet. Not many canyons are entirely dry. Canyons also chew up ropes, and dynamic ropes tend to have thin sheaths and fat cores. Canyoning is all about the sheath, so this is not good. The stretching itself can lead to some bouncing, and that can lead to the rope cutting. Ropes very rarely cut all the way through, but they often cut to the point of having a core shot, and thus being retired.

If your rope has been used for climbing more than 10 times, then the dry treatment is pretty much gone anyway. If not, the first two rappels with sand will take care of it. I could be wrong, but I do not think the dry treatment makes any difference when using ropes in canyons.



The block system is very nice for rope retrieval and can be adapted to a number of situations. You can read more about ‘biner blocks and knot blocks on Tom’s Utah Tech tips site, Cerberus Canyons, the CanyonWiki, and on multiple threads on this site. I’ve liked using a ‘biner block in conjunction with a rope bag. Run the rope through the anchor. Pull out enough rope to reach the bottom of the rap. Block the rope. Toss the rope. Toss the rope bag. Rap double stranded or single stranded on the strand opposite the block (the one fixed by the block). Once down, pull the rope and restuff. This way you only pull out the rope you need and you don’t have to uncoil, untangle, rap and recoil the entire rope with each pull. Also, with wet raps, the ‘biner block can be used to fix the rope length just beyond the water level. This way you can rap right off the end of the rope and swim away without the worry of disconnecting while treading water (ah the dangers of dropping your rap device in a deep pool of murky water).

There are many more diverse means of setting and using a ‘biner block. But you can read about them elsewhere.

Oh yeah, if using a Clove hitch, always be sure to set the knot tightly on the spine of the ‘biner. Somewhere here there was mention of a loosely tied hitch that slipped when weighted. :eek:

I am hoping John was trying to demonstrate that "it's not that simple." Because it is not. I highly recommend that you hook up with some people that know what they are doing.

Here's an easy way to do that: put in on the lottery for a permit for 6 for Mystery Canyon on a Saturday after May 15th. HOPEFULLY the Narrows will be open by then. Once you have the reservation in hand, I am sure you can find people to buff out your trip.

Of course, you also have to be careful not to actually hook up with people that don't know what they are doing. Be careful. While having taken an ACA course or two is no guarantee of appropriate skills, it IS a question you can ask.

Good Luck. Hope to see you in Zion sometime.

Tom

[dccampen]

Studying the revered book "On Rope" will provide you with very little of the kind of information and the skills you need to safely descend canyons.
My advice would be to ignore this comment.

[koentje]

My advice would be to ignore this comment.

No, authors even say it themselves: nothing for canyoneering ;)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1879961059/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-2662184-3159161#reader-page

[johnswelchvi]

Tom-

Would certainly agree with you. Climbing ropes will take a beating in the canyons.

The tacid knowledge and skills of technical canyoneering, climbing or mountaineering are best learned from a variety of people who know what they are doing.

John