Alternative Rope Techniques

[rcwild]

Comments/Questions submitted by Chris Jain

Seems it comes down to single-strand versus double strand. Appears to me that single strand would take more time to rig but would give you more options if something goes wrong because it can be more easily ascended, used to lower, used to raise. Also it can be used to avoid floating disconnects. Double strand is simpler but offers fewer options if things go wrong.

It would seem that a big safety advantage (the ability to lower a stuck rappeller) requires each rappeller to use a shunt, autoblock, etc. in order to be truly useful (because otherwise, except for when a rap device gets jammed, the rappeller will end up at the bottom anyway).

But in most situations (with the exception of special situations like rapping into swimmer pools), I can't see the double strand method being any faster and I actually expect it would be quite a bit slower, especially if autoblocks, shunts, etc. are used. Also, using the double strand method requires a rapide, chain link, or rap link on every anchor (yes, I agree this is nice to have using any method or rappel) but if it's not there already you'll need to add one. For a canyon like Heaps, this would mean bringinq a large number of rapides and rerigging a quite a few anchors (not that this would be a bad thing if someone did this

Is this a fair assessment?

[rcwild]

Chris,

You hit some of the high points, but you're missing many, many details. We teach components and how to combine them to create systems appropriate to a wide variety of situations. Variables to consider when building a system include:

ANCHOR QUALITY
If marginal, avoid systems that could place 2:1 mechanical disadvantage on the anchor.

ANCHOR LOCATION
If the anchor is a ground-level chock stone, a contingency anchor would be hard to operate.

HEIGHT OF DROP
If short, you will have plenty of extra rope to deal with problems, regardless of how you rig the rope. If long, setting up a "toss and go" will drastically reduce options if something goes wrong. If you are uncertain whether or not your rope will reach the ground, setting up a block or contingency anchor will provide a simple solution, even after you have begun your rappel.

AVAILABILITY OF EXTRA ROPE
If you are carrying additional rope, you have options separate from how the main rope is rigged.

DIAMETER OF ROPE USED
Rappels on single strands of thin rope are harder to control than on thick rope.

WATER PRESENT
When rappelling in a waterfall, releasable contingency anchors should be used. If a rappeller gets stuck, there are risks such as hypothermia and drowning. There is also a risk of rope entanglement in the hydraulics that occur at the base of a waterfall. When rappelling a dryfall into a pool, consideration should be given to whether or not you'd prefer a wet disconnect or rope set to drop.

ROPE PROTECTION
If sharp edges are present and you are concerned about your rope getting cut, "toss and go" has advantages. In part, because you will be splitting your weight between two strands. There are simple ways to fix the two strands to add redundancy. There are also simple ways to set up a combination "toss and go" / contingency anchor.

EXPERIENCE OF GROUP MEMBERS
It can be assumed that beginners are more likely to have difficulties during a rappel, so it may be a good idea to use a contingency anchor more often than normal "just in case".

So far, I've just mentioned the variables to consider regarding rigging. We also teach several different ways to set rope length, several different ways to rig rappelling devices, how to work with rope from a coil or out of a bag, etc. Not to mention the fact that we teach several alternatives to rappelling.

Might sound complicated, but it's not really. Most ACA course graduates will settle into a small set of favorite components/systems that they will use 90% of the time. Other components/systems are pulled from their tool box where the need is obvious.

I prefer to work out of a rope bag and tend to use blocks most of the time. I set up "toss and go" when I'm concerned about abrasion and releasable contingency anchors when rapping in waterfalls or with beginners.

With practice and experience, decision making becomes very intuitive and fast. With practice and experience, setting up an alternative rope system takes no longer, or only seconds longer, than "toss and go". The time saved to overcome problems can be very significant and worth the effort.

[Dwayne27]

thought i'd drag this thread up from years ago... i saw a recent discussion somewhere else online discussing this- but these little bits seem to cover the important parts.

personnally- i almost always find myself rigging blocks.

1)just habit
2)keeps rope at top for emergency
3)easier to ascend if necessary
4)easier to lock off (for me anyway...)
5)easier to manage the rope when you have a 200 ft rope working from a bag and a 30 ft drop (although toss n' go isnt much different when working from a bag)
6)i use a pirana, so i have much more options as far as level of friction when rappeling single strand.
7)plus all that about rope lengths and water and floating disconnects...

as far as ADVANTAGES of toss n' go the only one i have heard mentioned is wear on your rope is less when on 2 ropes, and it is better going over potential sharp edges.
any other thoughts?

[rcwild]

as far as ADVANTAGES of toss n' go the only one i have heard mentioned is wear on your rope is less when on 2 ropes, and it is better going over potential sharp edges.
any other thoughts?

Toss 'n go also provides more friction. More friction = more control on rappel.

[ddpettin]

I will rig toss 'n go when I am concerned that my block will snag on something coming down and there are no issues like water at the bottom.

[Dwayne27]

I will rig toss 'n go when I am concerned that my block will snag on something coming down and there are no issues like water at the bottom.

another issue i hadnt thought of... good call dan

[DJ Meding]

As long as we are on alternative rope technics I will throw this out. On the last rap out of Behunin during the rondy I rigged our long rope for the drop. We did not have the pull rope forward yet so I pulled about 10 feet of rope through the rapide and biner blocked it. I then tied an eight ona bite and secured that loop to the anchors further back from the edge. This still left plenty of tail to secure the pull rope to once it got up to me. We then threw the rope bag over the edge and listened for it to hit bottom.
First few folks went down single strand with no problems. Word then came forward that there were people that wanted to go down double strand. The pull rope was now available but we did not want anyone to have to pass a knot and I did not want to re-rig the entire setup. Rap rope and pull rope were both 8mm.
I am looking for thoughts on how others would proceed at this point? Don't know if I am second guessing my solution or just looking for things I didn't think of.
Dave

[rcwild]

I will rig toss 'n go when I am concerned that my block will snag on something coming down and there are no issues like water at the bottom.

Of course you can rig a block or whatever for everyone but the last person. So you can address issues that call for a block. Last person can change to toss 'n go to address concerns about the block snagging.

[rcwild]

... so I pulled about 10 feet of rope through the rapide and biner blocked it. I then tied an eight ona bite and secured that loop to the anchors further back from the edge. This still left plenty of tail to secure the pull rope to once it got up to me. We then threw the rope bag over the edge and listened for it to hit bottom.

I'm curious why you rigged a block on the tail of the rope and threw the rope bag. Why not feed enough rope through the rappel ring so the end reaches the ground then rig the block on the bag side, keeping the bag on top?

Then people show up who want to rap double strand? No problem. Tie a knot (personally I would use a directional eight) in the rope just below the block on the bag side. Connect the end of the second rope to this knot (personally I would use a rethreaded eight through the directional eight loop). Now toss the second rope bag.

If you're picturing this correctly, both rope bags are now on the same side of the rappel ring. People should all rappel double strand now or be careful not to rap on the wrong strand of rope.

[DJ Meding]

I'm curious why you rigged a block on the tail of the rope and threw the rope bag. Why not feed enough rope through the rappel ring so the end reaches the ground then rig the block on the bag side, keeping the bag on top?

Then people show up who want to rap double strand? No problem. Tie a knot (personally I would use a directional eight) in the rope just below the block on the bag side. Connect the end of the second rope to this knot (personally I would use a rethreaded eight through the directional eight loop). Now toss the second rope bag.

If you're picturing this correctly, both rope bags are now on the same side of the rappel ring. People should all rappel double strand now or be careful not to rap on the wrong strand of rope.

We could not see the bottom and knew that is was an unobstructed overhanging drop.

I wanted a clean end of the rap rope at top to tie the pull rope to once it came forward. Didn't want anyone to have to worry about extra rope bags at the top.

[ddpettin]

Of course you can rig a block or whatever for everyone but the last person. So you can address issues that call for a block. Last person can change to toss 'n go to address concerns about the block snagging.

You are correct. Depending on who I am with and the varaibles present for the rappel, I will either rig a static or releasable block; then, as the last one down, remove the block and rappel double strand. That also allows me to have the excess rope on top for emergencies or use the releasable block for emergencies. Allows for a lot of flexibility.



We then threw the rope bag over the edge and listened for it to hit bottom.
Dave

Personally, I do not like to throw my rope bag down the cliff. I think it puts unneccessary wear and tear on the rope bag. The bag could snag on something going down and get stuck or rip. Also, just the impact of hitting the ground at the bottom or the side of the cliff on the way down seems like it will reduce the life of your gear. What are others thoughts on this? Am I the only one who does not like to throw my rope bag down the cliff?

[Dwayne27]

I always do keep my rope bag up top on rappels of any length... although i am pretty rough with it at downclimbs between rappels. it seems to be holding up pretty well, but i guess we'll see how long it lasts

[rcwild]

I've seen the rigging system Dave described elsewhere on the internet. Retrieval involves pulling all of the rope out of one bag (obviously bag can't pass through rappel ring). If you have a 190-foot rappel and 200 feet of rope in the bag, you're only pulling up an extra 10 feet. If you have a 150-foot rappel, you're pulling up an extra 50 feet of rope. Not very efficient. The system also eliminates the ability to lower on the main line -- unless you pass the block and a knot. See photo.

[rcwild]

Instead, pull the end out of the rope bag and feed it through the rappel ring like normal. If you're not sure if the rope reaches the bottom, rig a releasable system. If you're sure it reaches, you can set up a static block instead. Your call. Rigging this way allows you to lower if necessary -- assuming you have enough rope left in the bag. Fix the end of the rope from the second bag to the main rope just above the rope bag. In the photo below I tied a grapevine just for illustration. Secure enough for retrieval. If people wish to rappel on both strands, use a more secure knot -- like the directional eight and rethreaded eight mentioned in a previous post.

This system eliminates the need to untie the end of the rope from one of the bags when retrieving.

[JDClery]

In the last drop of Behunin, I don't see the rigging system Dave describes being less efficient. Sure he has to pull an extra 50', but it is probably a lot quicker than running 150' of rope through a rapide and coiling it for a throw. It is also a lot more likely to get a clean throw with a big thud to confirm it is on the ground. I've used this method before on similar rappels and pulled out 10-20 feet for a block, to tie the ropes together and just because I know I won't need it for the rappel, so there even less rope in the bag.

It does limit your ability to lower someone, but with only 50' of rope left, how useful will lowering someone be? Really though, I've never had to use a contingency anchor in a canyon, would having the option to lower someone only a little ways come in handy? Either way you have a second rope on top in case you need it.

With that said, I prefer to set my rope length whenever possible. It's quick and easy to rap off the end of the rope, keeps my rope out of the sand and just looks nice and clean with the end of the rope hanging a foot or two off the ground. If I'm worried about the block on a rope pull, I'll usually go double if I'm last, if I'm more worried about the rope twisting and effecting the pull, I'll go single strand.

Short drops with a small group, I'll often set up toss and go. I try to avoid throwing my rope bag down big drops to avoid unnecessary damage.

[moab mark]

How are most of you getting the rope to the bottom of a rappel of any size if there is any wind or ledges. We use to spend alot of time tossing rope, guessing, praying, rigging a realeasble (which those in my group are not comfortable being lowered, (and honestly we like to rappel not be lowered) but seems like you are adding alot more risk if you have to lower just to get the rope to the bottom?). So we have taken to feeding rope through blocking the end and then dropping the bag and then rappeling. If there is a nasty edge we will move the biner every so often. The last guy then pulls up enough rope to drop as the pull cord or ties on our other rope.
Another way we have used some, while in moab this weekend we had a couple of young kids that wanted to practice. The rappel was pretty short about 30 ft or so but due to the wind we could not even get close to the rope hitting the bottom, yes we could of fed out 40 ft tossed and then let the first guy down kick it off the ledges put seems to be a pain and the first guy misses out on a nice rappel. Under this situation I really wanted to be able to have a realeasble in case one of them had a problem. So I dropped the bag then fed my other rope through the anchor and then tied the two ropes together. I then put the realeasble on the other rope and if I needed to lower I could with the knot justing going down.
If using this in a canyon seems you could now know the rope is on the ground be able to lower with the realeasble and then the last guy could drop the bag up on top remove the releasble and rappel double strand. You may have to bag more rope but it seems to get you the best of both???? Rope on ground and a realeasable????
Other then doing the above we have taken the line if we have a problem we will rig the other rope and go down and help. Maybe not to smart but we are not comfortable rappeling if we are not sure if the end is on the ground. Most of this is probably pretty basic but opinions would be appreciated. I read alot about keeping the bag at the top but our expericence has been its hard to get the rope to the bottom??

In Rich's pic we do something similar if we have kept the bag at the top. But we tie the other rope to the bottom of the top bag and then the last guy throws both bags. By doing this the top bag feeds out and then the other bag feeds out what is needed to get to the bottom. This allows the upper bag to not need to be pulled over the edge. Seems to work pretty well with only what is necessary coming out of the bottom bag.
Yes this post was a little long but any opinions would be appreciated.
Mark

[Dwayne27]

Man- this is seeming to become complicated. Basically every rappel we come to- we feed enough rope through the anchor and toss it. If we can see it is touching the ground, we just use a biner block. If not we use a releasable and my wife goes down first. She is a good smooth rappeller and i am the 'rope technician' She will then tell me to lower her or pull some rope up. Now the rope is set for everyone else. The rest of the party goes with her at the bottom providing a belay and me at the top helping with the rigging. At the end, i just clip the rope bag to my teather and rappel down, pull the rope and off we go. I have never run in to any situations where the wind has affected our set up

[rcwild]

Sure he has to pull an extra 50', but it is probably a lot quicker than running 150' of rope through a rapide and coiling it for a throw.

Good point ... as long as we add a qualifier ... dry canyon where inability to rap off the end of the rope is not a concern.

[DJ Meding]

The wind was a bit of a factor as it was blowing straight up the canyon at a good force. It also made me pull on my red jacket (I was still wet from the last pool) which all the tourists at the Emerald Pools could clearly see.
When I tossed the red rope bag they all gave a shudder thinking someone was tumbling over the edge. We found out about this later once we got down to the pools and the group that had been photographing us inquired if we were the group that was just up on the wall.