Harnesses - Gear Reviews

[rcwild]

Those who have taken ACA courses have learned some advanced techniques that can be difficult with a climbing harness with a belay loop (i.e. BD Bod). The belay loop IS strong enough to tie into directly. In fact, is is stronger than the harness itself. But once loaded, it becomes difficult to clip into with additional carabiners. If you clip a carabiner directly through the waist belt and leg loop, it is likely to become cross-loaded against the gate. This is NOT recommended by any manufacturer. They recommend tying directly into the belt and leg loop with a climbing rope, but NOT with a carabiner.

During a recent course, one of our students, Phillip, was ogling my Delta (triangular) rapide and asked if it would work on his climbing harness. Probably. But there is a better choice; a D-shaped maillon rapide, referred to as a "half moon". Petzl sells them for connecting the "ears" of their caving harnesses. I checked with Hank (Petzl USA's technical info guru) and he confirmed that they will work. You can view them, along with strength figures, at:

http://www.wichard-usa.com/ClimbingSafety/maillon_rapide/index.htm

So ... you can use your belay loop for a carabiner with rappelling device, and install a half-moon rapide connecting your waist belt and leg loops. Attach your cows tail (i.e. Energyca/Spelergyca) directly to the half-moon and use it as a rigid tie-in point when performing transitions, etc.

[rcwild]

You've got a climbing harness and you might not mind getting it a little wet and muddy. But there are also harnesses available made especially for canyoneering. What features do they have that make them more appropriate? Which one should you choose?

This is the place to share your gear reviews. Please help us keep this forum organized by posting all of your harness related reviews as replies to this message (use the "PostReply" button). Ask questions or start a new thread by using the "NewTopic" button. Thank you.

[rcwild]

Review submitted by Koen Viaene

This special canyoneering harness has already undergone some changes since first appearing on the market. Sturdy belt, pretty much bomb-proof if you keep an eye on the wear of the seat-protection. The rappel buckle is positioned high enough for rappelling with a normal backpack. Some observations after 7 years of continuous use: the first version had the buckles of the leg-loops on the inside of the leg. When lifting your leg the buckle would get painfully pushed into your groin over and over again. This has been changed since. The latest version has this real handy double-back buckle on the waist, why not on the leg loops as well (standard on the cheaper Niagara belt) ? The gear hangers/seat holders can slide, quite handy when going through narrow slots but all the rest of the time a real pain - literally. The loops of these hangers fold the waistband over up to the point it's so narrow it hurts when rappelling. I hope they stitch the next version solid !

Bottom line: sturdy harness but very uncomfortable. On many occasions I've had to lower people practicing rope manoeuvers because they were in extreme pain after 5 minutes hanging free. Not cheap, spare parts available but also at a price. Comes in two sizes and the biggest one is really big ! Even a really overweight person with a neoprene suit on will have no problems getting in to this one. Some harness makers seem to forget canyoning is not only practised by slender rock climbers, but also by "sturdy" types with the added girth of a neoprene suit. P.S. If you make a habit of sliding down chutes on your belly, the metal rappel buckle wears through the belt (good thing it's double at that point).

www.petzl.com

[rcwild]

I used the Edelrid Canyon Tour harnass with the company I worked for last year. Sadly not a real improvement on the Petzl harnass. Still extreem pain after hanging for 5 min. The problem, as with the Petzl, is that the webbing folds in to a sting that cuts into your body. The look is deffentetly better though, black webbing and yellow ass patch. But the stiching on the patch died very quickly.

I guess it is time for a climbing like harnass with a patch a a metal 'belay loop'. Padded or re-enforced leg and hip loop is a must for me. Maybe we can make a prototype with Petzl or Edelrid?


grt,
Merijn

[rcwild]

Review submitted by Casey Murphy

Hey, I figure you guys already know this, but it wasn't on the page, so I figured I'd say something.

I really like the Fractio caving harness from Petzl. You have to buy the bum protection separately, but it's a good harness. The low attachment point improves comfort in free hangs and ascension. Though the gear loops are smaller than they are sufficient. It's a bit more expensive, but so are my testicles, so I hear. It also has extra webbing pro for the waist belt; very good in toboggans and narrows. Have fun.

[rcwild]

Submitted by Gomer03

What about harnesses that are marketed specifically for rappelling, such as the BQM unit ($29.95). You can see it at www.actiongear.com.

Yates also makes a "rescue" harness ($55 at www.rescuesource.com) that looks similar and features a "lower hook-up for better balance."

Would either of these be superior to the Metolius SafeTech harness I own?

[shadb]

I am getting ready to buy a new harness, and found this one pretty interesting:

http://www.bluewaterropes.com/

Blue Water has one called the "Discovery Rescue" that looks pretty good to me. Anyone tried one of these?

$68 at : http://www.climbinggear.com/products/listing/item2489.asp?referralsource=bluewater_cg

$67 here: http://www.rescuetech1.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=204

-shad

[shadb]

found yet another...

Tatical Rappel Harness w/ 'D' Ring

here: http://www.rescuetech1.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=636

You can add a padded waste belt feature to it as well, but looks like this might be worth a try to me.

Easy on and off, can pop off the leg loops to wear just as a belt until it's time to rappel again.

anyone checked one of these out before?

-shad

[rcwild]

Cool harnesses, Shad.

I personally like a canyoneering harness with a D-ring attachment point and both of the harnesses you're looking at have one. At $67, the BlueWater Discovery Rescue could be a good choice.

The drop-down leg loop feature of that Tactical Rappel harness is really neat, but $120+ ??? Ouch!

[jndfrank]

During a recent course, one of our students, Phillip, was ogling my Delta (triangular) rapide and asked if it would work on his climbing harness. Probably. But there is a better choice; a D-shaped maillon rapide, referred to as a "half moon". Petzl sells them for connecting the "ears" of their caving harnesses. I checked with Hank (Petzl USA's technical info guru) and he confirmed that they will work.

There has been lots of discussion elsewhere in this forum about the benefits of using a harness with a D ring tie in point (such as the Petzl Canyoneering harness). Rich also discussed this in the ACA class. However, it does limit the choice of harnesses available. Could you use the D-shaped maillon rapide Rich describes above installed on the belay loop of a typical climbing harness to gain the advantges of a harness with a built in D-Ring? With the rapel device attached to the D Ring it would then be in the "proper" orientation.

Thx,
Dave

[hoot]

There has been lots of discussion elsewhere in this forum about the benefits of using a harness with a D ring tie in point (such as the Petzl Canyoneering harness). Rich also discussed this in the ACA class. However, it does limit the choice of harnesses available. Could you use the D-shaped maillon rapide Rich describes above installed on the belay loop of a typical climbing harness to gain the advantges of a harness with a built in D-Ring? With the rapel device attached to the D Ring it would then be in the "proper" orientation.

Thx,
Dave

I have the same question Dave asked and I have not been able to locate a reply. Is this SAFE??

Thanks
Chip

[DJ Meding]

The problem with what you guys are describing is that the D-ring will not stay exactly where you want it to because the belay loop is only about one inch wide.
I purchased some two inch webbing and a stainless steel welded d ring from a parachute supply house and had a custom belay loop with the D-ring attached sewn onto the harness by the folks at On Rope. If I can bribe the wife I will get a photo of this later and post if for you.
Dave

[DJ Meding]

The problem with what you guys are describing is that the D-ring will not stay exactly where you want it to because the belay loop is only about one inch wide.
I purchased some two inch webbing and a stainless steel welded d ring from a parachute supply house and had a custom belay loop with the D-ring attached sewn onto the harness by the folks at On Rope. If I can bribe the wife I will get a photo of this later and post if for you.
Dave

I was well bribed.

[jndfrank]

The problem with what you guys are describing is that the D-ring will not stay exactly where you want it to because the belay loop is only about one inch wide.
I purchased some two inch webbing and a stainless steel welded d ring from a parachute supply house and had a custom belay loop with the D-ring attached sewn onto the harness by the folks at On Rope. If I can bribe the wife I will get a photo of this later and post if for you.
Dave

Very interesting solution.

I originally asked this question because I was having problems finding a harness with a D-Ring that fit me correctly. I had some of the same concerns that Dave mentioned about using a D shaped maillon - seemed like it would move around on the belay loop. I was also concerned about the nut creating abrasion on the belay loop, and even that somehow the nut might back off. All that was enough to discourage me from pursuing this further. Better to keep it simple and eliminate variables that might lead to a failure.

I ended up deciding to use a climbing harness, and actually haven't had any issues with the orientation of the belay device. My experience is that when you pull on the brake side of the rope it tends to pull the belay device into a good position.

Dave

[hank_moon]

To those concerned about device orientation with belay-loop-style harnesses:

Install a 10mm "Maillon Rapide" brand aluminum oval on the belay loop.

Weight: about 50 g
Cost: ?

Advantages? Disadvantages? U-FILL-EM.

TJ "Hooker" used to have some of these for sale.

[rambler-joe]

I was well bribed.

That's some harness, My lounge chair isn't that wide.:D
For what it's worth, I have posted pics of the Aussie made SRTE Redback harness, http://picasaweb.google.com/EJSharples/RedbackHarness It is an industrial strength harness, comes with a steel triangular mellion and is fully adjustable with fold back buckles rather than the quick release ones that are fitted to most climbing harnesses. The two red loops make it very easy to connect extra gear.
Rambler-joe

[DJ Meding]

That's some harness, My lounge chair isn't that wide.:D
For what it's worth, I have posted pics of the Aussie made SRTE Redback harness, http://picasaweb.google.com/EJSharples/RedbackHarness It is an industrial strength harness, comes with a steel triangular mellion and is fully adjustable with fold back buckles rather than the quick release ones that are fitted to most climbing harnesses. The two red loops make it very easy to connect extra gear.
Rambler-joe

It's a caving harness from OnRope with padded leg loops. I was finding the Petzl canyon harness quite uncomfortable. I have a deficit of natural padding. I can hang for hours in this new one and the original belay loop still makes a great low tie in point for a Croll making ascending very efficient.
Dave

[hank_moon]

I was finding the Petzl canyon harness quite uncomfortable.

Hi Dave

Is that the new CANYON (all black w/padded waistbelt, webbing ventral attachment point) or the old one (multicolor with steel D-ring ventral attachment point)?

Curious,

hank

[DJ Meding]

Hi Dave

Is that the new CANYON (all black w/padded waistbelt, webbing ventral attachment point) or the old one (multicolor with steel D-ring ventral attachment point)?

Curious,

hank

Hank,
First off, nothing disparaging meant towards Petzl. Love the stuff.
It is the old style that was giving me a problem. I like the look of the new style but not too keen on losing the D-ring. I had the caving harness long before the new style came out and had modified it early on. What are your thoughts on the new webbing attachment point? Will they ever switch back?
Dave

[charlybldr]

Dave,

I know you didn't ask me but I'll throw in my two cents.

I've always been a big fan of the D Ring attachment point but have changed to the webbing version on the last two harnesses I've been using (Petzl Tetrax and Aspir). Have to say, I like them just as much. And, they're lighter...

For me it's not as much the metal D Ring but the way the attachment point is oriented to the harness.

Charly

[DJ Meding]

Charly,
Your two cents is always welcomed.
Dave

[ratagonia]

To those concerned about device orientation with belay-loop-style harnesses:

Install a 10mm "Maillon Rapide" brand aluminum oval on the belay loop.

Weight: about 50 g
Cost: ?

Advantages? Disadvantages? U-FILL-EM.

TJ "Hooker" used to have some of these for sale.

I've had trouble getting them from Wichard, but have some coming in on Friday. YES, add a 10mm aluminum rapide to the belay loop works quite well. It extends the device a bit (2") which seems to be good overall. The inside of the 10mm rapide is big enough to fit neatly on the belay loop, and allows a Petzl William or Petzl Attache to rotate fully through it easily.

Cost: $ 9.00

[Nate]

Time for a new canyon harness I think... I was practicing freehanging ascending and descending last night in my trusty (or so I thought) old Alpine Bod and I was getting CRUSHED downstairs... By the time I finished one up and down the rope I was literally sick to my stomach! I've used this harness a lot (mostly for climbing though), but I can't recall a time when I've actually hung freely in it for an extended period, so I guess I just never noticed. Anyway, I've been considering a canyon specific harness for a bit now, and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with:

1) The new Petzl Canyoneering harness (I've heard the older ones kinda suck?)
2) The CAMP Canyoneering harness

I kinda like the idea of the butt cover dealy... Not only does it boost dork factor by ~2.7, but it seems like it would really be an asset on all the slides out here in the PNW.

Thanks for any info!

[SLewis]

Eidelweiss Canyon Harness $130
Camp Eldorado Canyon Harness $90
Petzl Canyon Harness $120

Imlay Scuttle Butt $33
(fits on "most" traditional climbing harnesses)

Tom Jones @Imlay Gear, Canyoneering USA dot com
(reportedly) sells the Scuttle Butt and the Petzl harness.
I pulled "prices" off net listings. Liberty Mtn Sports sells
the Eidelweiss.

I use to have an Eidelweiss and I've handled a Petzl.
Comparatively, they are "very heavy" and fit much better
on "bigger bodies, larger rear ends and waists." I was too "thin"
to properly fit into either of the two. I've not seen or handled the "Camp."
The scuttle butt in my view, is a fine product and works well - if it comports to a harness you have.

Many!! other creative ways to protect "back straps" on a climbing
harness. Nylon "tubed" webbing can be cut to fit over the straps;
ends are then sewn or glued. Thin bicycle tube can be used in the
same manner. Wearing a pair of jeans/shorts over the harness works
in some cases; and as a (near) last resort, specialty tapes and shucks,
even duct tape will work. Straps and fasteners need to be protected.

Also note that the wide thick back straps of a caving harness are much
"more durable." I have both a Petzl and a Guano Gonzo Gear harness that
are quite durable and slide well in wet environments. Those harnesses
are light and simple and are the "device" for efficient ascending. But, with
a lower attach point they may or may not be an OK harness for general canyon use?

These products wear out - if doing lots of slipping and sliding in dry sandstone enviros they wear out even quicker. In wet PNW enviros,
I don't know what their "half life is."

One day, someone can invite me up to the PNW for a week or more, I'd love
to visit some of those wondrous watery canyons. I was there a year ago
with my mother - visited my aunt/uncle in Sammamish. I walked, visited & viewed two popular "canyon" spots under/adjacent to the Interstate east of "town." Very green, lush and beautiful - stunning water canyons; approaching the holy grail?

SL in SLC

[ratagonia]

1) The new Petzl Canyoneering harness (I've heard the older ones kinda suck?)
2) The CAMP Canyoneering harness

I kinda like the idea of the butt cover dealy... Not only does it boost dork factor by ~2.7, but it seems like it would really be an asset on all the slides out here in the PNW.

Thanks for any info!

Are Canyon harnesses the best thing for Canyoning?

I think not. For certain people, who the canyon harnesses fit well, perhaps. But they are overly bulky, heavy and expensive. Personally I like a middle-of-the-road climbing harness (like the BD Momentum AL) with a Scuttlebutt. For the kind of canyoneering we do here in the states (lots of hiking, large variations in wet suitage, some long rappels), I find it a much more comfortable option than Canyon harnesses.

Harnesses will fit differently on different people. kinda like Jeans. There is likely a brand and model that will fit you well, but it is likely different than the one that fits your buddy. Go to a well-equipped shop and spend an hour hanging in a couple different models until you find the one that fits you well, without crushing, you know, things.

Tom

[rcwild]

Are the choices limited to (A) a specialty canyoneering harness, or (B) a climbing harness? Of course not.

Climbing harnesses are designed with the expectation that you won't be hanging in it for extended periods of time. You weight it when being lowered, during an occasional rappel or during an occasional fall (for some people that occurs more often than others).

Specialty canyoneering harnesses have (so far) all been designed by European companies for the Euro version of canyoning with the expectation that you will spend extended periods of time hanging in your harness (rappelling) and on your ass doing toboggans (water slides).

But there are other types of harnesses on the market that may be better suited for the American version of canyoneering. Consider a harness made specifically for rappelling or for rescue. Shopping for the right harness in these catagories will be a bit more challenging. Your normal outdoor retailer probably won't stock much of a variety, if any at all.

I've got to run to catch a flight. I'll try to post some examples during my next layover.

[hank_moon]

I'll try to post some examples during my next layover.


A few...

http://www.trango.com/prod.php?id=29

http://www.singingrock.com/GoodsDetail_LS.asp?nDepartmentID=424&nGoodsID=417&nLanguageID=2

http://www.mammut.ch/mammut/katalog.asp?view=detail&did=6&dart=3&tid=52003&sid=2

http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-2006/index.php?page=harnais&lang=us

(beal aquateam)

[Nate]

Thanks to all for your excellent replies! I need to look into these alleged "well stocked outdoor retailer" stores that I have heard mentioned... :)

[rcwild]

A few...

http://www.trango.com/prod.php?id=29

http://www.singingrock.com/GoodsDetail_LS.asp?nDepartmentID=424&nGoodsID=417&nLanguageID=2

http://www.mammut.ch/mammut/katalog.asp?view=detail&did=6&dart=3&tid=52003&sid=2

http://www.bealplanet.com/portail-2006/index.php?page=harnais&lang=us

(beal aquateam)

Thanks, Hank. All good examples.

[rcwild]

In addition to your "normal" outdoor retailers – IF you live in a bigger-than-mine city – check your yellow pages for retailers that carry rescue gear. An example in Phoenix would be Arizona Hiking Shack. They have a division called AHS Rescue.

[SLewis]

An addendum

A. BD Bod, and Apline Bod. (Bod has wider back straps)
Legions swear by these lightweight simple harnesses.
(unless I've a heavy wet suit on I "ache" in these units.

B. Padded, vs. not padded (the above have little padding)
My body wants/needs a padded harness.

C. Single pull vs. double back waist and leg straps.
Example is the Petzl Aspir; Mammut and many others now carry...
I've both an Aspir and Mammut that I very much enjoy.

D. Sewn across the waist belay sling vs. loop.
Examples shown via Hanks note.
Petzl Aspir can be added to this mix.

E. Hype/styles
a. many swear by the BD Alpine Bod or Bod - they often ask why do
we wear those silly padded harnesses. I've had some ACA guides mockingly suggest the same. The simple answer - their body is not mine.
b. The newer single pull waist and leg strap harnesses. So convenient in my view, and now my favorites - very easy transition from dry to wet conditions when wet suit goes on or off. Still, from some corners folk want double back.
c. Across the waist sewn belay sling - configures the biner and rap device in a lined up vs. twisted style. I know many that have gone this direction.
d. Back butt straps - that are normally so flimsy. Be nice is someone (like Petzl) made a product like the Aspir, with wide beefy butt straps. One reason Tom's add on butt protector is nice, if it fits your harness.
e. go to a climbing shop, hang on the harness - listen in part to others and the hype, but mostly listen to your body. (I took a chance with the aspir - ordered via the mail and for me, it's been a most comfortable and efficient harness - with very flimsy butt straps.
f. likely folk may/will build a quiver - different harnesses for different locales and situations? If I had no add on harness butt protection and planned to do a lot of water butt slides in canyons, personally I might try a caving harness that has "built in" wide strong rear straps. An easier alternative? Find a harness that fits both you and one of Tom's add on rear protectors.
g. In Utah, in corridors like the Roost, Escalante, and particularly N Wash, if great care is not taken to protect back straps, by days end, the fasteners and straps will have worn/come loose. Mountain water environments do or don't test the harness in the same manner - the same for some/many Zion
trade canyons.

end

[matt]

Bluewater's Discovery Rescue harness was mentioned earlier. We've been using these for the past eight years now and they are great. They're simple, durable and have a roomy steel D-ring attachment point which is a big selling point for us. There's no padding, however, though this doesn't present much problem for canyoneering as far as we're concerned. I disagree with Rich that climbing has you spending less time in the harness than canyoneering. I guess it depends on the climb and the canyon, of course. Personally I like that the Bluewater harness doesn't have padding. You're only spending a minute or so per rappel in the harness anyway so padding isn't that essential. If you're in a canyon requiring a wetsuit or bulky clothing under a drysuit then the lack of padding becomes a non-issue. Not to mention the non-padded harness won't soak up as much of southern Utah's prevalent bloated-animal infested slot water funk like a foam-padded harness will. It also has two gear loops which are handy for racking essential gear, as well as keeping your descender from racking your really essential gear while hiking. Both loops are off to the left side which I like since it keeps things out of the way of your brake hand. I'd steer clear of harnesses that don't have any gear loops.

[ratagonia]

Not to mention the non-padded harness won't soak up as much of southern Utah's prevalent bloated-animal infested slot water funk like a foam-padded harness will.

Not sure where this myth that padded harnesses absorb water comes from - but foam used in harness (and most backpacks for that matter) is closed cell foam and non-absorbant. The only padded harness I know that actually absorbs water is the BD Bod Harness, which uses fleece for padding.

However, it is true as harness become somewhat larger and have softer surfaces, they will ADSORB some water. Adsorbing is retaining water on the surface - and some harnesses have more surface, and a more retentive surface, than others. Still, aside from the Bod Harness, the actual water absorbed, adsorbed or otherwise retained is quite small.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Climbing harnesses are designed with the expectation that you won't be hanging in it for extended periods of time. You weight it when being lowered, during an occasional rappel or during an occasional fall (for some people that occurs more often than others).



Wow, Rich. You snuck into a lot more of those design meetings than I gave you credit for. And your notes - so different than mine!

Climbing harnesses are designed for hanging in for extended periods of time. Some less so, some more so, but it is definitely a major consideration. Unfortunately for us, soft-in-the-middle late 40ish (or so) canyoneers, the comfort of your harness is mostly determined by the available muscle tension of YOUR ABS. Or lack thereof, as in my case. So if you are sporting a keg as opposed to a six-pack, making a harness that is comfortable to hang in become a much more difficult design problem.

Thankfully for harness designers, climbers tend to be rather a fit bunch, at least the ones that are really into it. So harnesses do not need to be particularly wide to provide reasonable comfort for long hangs. Contrary to certain rumors, some climbers spend a LOT of time in their harnesses, particularly big-wall aid climbers, and buy based on comfort. Based on their abdominal fitness. etc etc.

There are many different climbing harnesses available. Given what your abs look like, comfort will depend on fit. So find a well-provisioned climbing store and spend some time to get yourself a harness that fits for you.

If you're doing a canyon that provides ATV or helicopter or big truck access, and don't have to walk far in it, then perhaps a SAR or "Rappelling" harness would work for you. I suspect, for most people, a well-fitting climbing harness will work best. Put a Scuttlebutt on it to keep the dainty little backstraps from getting cut up.

Tom

[sonnylawrence]

I did not appreciate until recently how the comfort of a harness is directly related to wearing (or not) underwear.
I find I need easy buckles when operating in cold water. I can not undo the double pass through buckles when my hands are cold enough to mandate the use of gloves.

[rcwild]

I disagree with Rich that climbing has you spending less time in the harness than canyoneering.

I wasn't thinking about you big wallers when I made that comment. For free climbing, if you are spending much time suspended in your harness, you must be falling a lot. :p

Compare a harness designed specifically for big walls to the average light-weight climbing harness.

[rcwild]

I suspect, for most people, a well-fitting climbing harness will work best.

At least you hope so. Gotta sell that gear.

[ratagonia]

At least you hope so. Gotta sell that gear.

And if you decide you want the Petzl Canyon Harness, I'd be glad to sell you that, too!

Tom

[ratagonia]

For free climbing, if you are spending much time suspended in your harness, you must be falling a lot. :p



Since about 1985, hanging in the harness when working a route has been an important part of the sport of climbing. Or, at least, of sport climbing. There are also multi-pitch routes with hanging or semi-hanging belays, which test one's harness, abs and patience. Even in the gym, the guys who put up routes can spend an hour at a time in their harness. Etc.

Tom

[rcwild]

... falling a lot, or guilty of very poor style.

Sport climbing is neither. :D

[rcwild]

And if you decide you want the Petzl Canyon Harness, I'd be glad to sell you that, too!

Of course you will. Although profit margin is much higher when people buy Imlay brand items ... and they will likely make repeat Scuttle Butt purchases for their climbing harnesses.

We can continue this tit-for-tat ... or we can get back on track ...

There are many different types of harnesses from which to choose. There are pros and cons to each. We all have our own biases and our own reasons for those biases. Readers should consider the pros and cons and make their own choices based on their own individual needs, preferences, etc.

If this was a rock climbing forum, I would be raving about climbing harnesses. I'm not a fan of using climbing harnesses for canyoneering, but I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it. I merely want to make sure they are aware of all of their options.

Currently using a rescue harness. It weighs 10-12 ounces more than my climbing harness. It is every bit as comfortable to walk in as my climbing harness. It is infinitely more comfortable to hang in for prolonged periods than my climbing harness. It has a horizontal tie-in, which I prefer over a belay loop for canyoneering. AND ... Tom can sell me a custom-made Scuttle Butt for it.

[NColey]

So Tom, Rich, whomever wishes to chime in...

What canyoneering harness would you recommend for a smaller figure, in need of easily adjustable belt loops? Right now I am still using a climbing harness with a delta ring to reposition my rappel device, but the darned belt loops are very difficult to adjust when wet, and near impossible to safely buckle when combined with cold shaky hands.

Since these harnesses don't appear in-store (especially in the midwest), am trying hard to pinpoint the best fit without trying them on...

Thanks!

Nicole

[ratagonia]

So Tom, Rich, whomever wishes to chime in...

What canyoneering harness would you recommend for a smaller figure, in need of easily adjustable belt loops? Right now I am still using a climbing harness with a delta ring to reposition my rappel device, but the darned belt loops are very difficult to adjust when wet, and near impossible to safely buckle when combined with cold shaky hands.

Since these harnesses don't appear in-store (especially in the midwest), am trying hard to pinpoint the best fit without trying them on...

Thanks!

Nicole

Sorry Nicole. Belt loops? Are you having trouble threading the buckle, threading the webbing back through the buckle for the second pass?

I'd recommend looking at the Petzl climbing harnesses (women's models) with the buckles that don't need to be threaded. If flying through Vegas, check out Desert Rock Sports on Charleston Blvd (adn, there's a Trader Joe's a few blocks away). Or, when you are out here soon, track me down and I'll show you how to thread the buckles. (There's a trick).

Tom

[rcwild]

So Tom, Rich, whomever wishes to chime in...

What canyoneering harness would you recommend for a smaller figure, in need of easily adjustable belt loops?

Hi Nicole,

Guess what? I'm going to disagree with Tom's advice. Petzl (and a number of other companies) make nice climbing harnesses that are great for CLIMBING!

But you're asking about a canyoneering harness, so ignore Tom's suggestion. Several flatlanders recognized a value in having a horizontal tie-in point and had a parachute rigger fabricate those big bulky add-ons to their climbing harnesses. How about eliminating that mess and starting with a good canyoneering or rappelling harness from the start?

Check out the harnesses Hank listed in a previous post. Edelweiss has a model called the Challenge, which was designed for mountaineering, but has nice features for canyoneering – horizontal tie-in point, gear loops that can be repositioned (forward for water slides, back for tight sideways squeezes), easily adjusted waist and leg buckles – AND it will accept an Imlay Scuttle Butt.

One of the guide services I was training in Costa Rica uses this harness. I tried one and really liked it.

I am no longer a fan of the specialty canyoneering harnesses currently available in the U.S. I really liked the old version of Petzl's Canyon harness – when I weighed 180. Stopped liking it when I hit 210 after breaking my ankle. Haven't tried the new Petzl Canyon yet. I'll continue recommending that style of harness to anyone who does primarily Class C canyons with water slides. But the majority of American canyoneers tend to fall under one of two categories: (a) they only do Colorado Plateau canyons or (b) they do Colorado Plateau canyons and other types of canyons. So for the majority, it makes more sense to use a "generic" harness that will accept an Imlay Scuttle Butt that they can put on and remove whenever appropriate.

[NColey]

Woops yes, threading the webbing through the buckles. The webbing seems to "seize up" when wet, and gets thicker as a result, making it very difficult to re-thread. That's what I get for using a climbing harness, I guess.

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Petzl harnesses - will give these a try.

Nicole

[mountain man]

I think I want to try adding a ring to my climbing harness. Looks like it would orientate the descending device better.
Ok, consider myself ignorant. When you do add a “half moon� D-ring (mallion rapide) or any other ring (mallion rapide) to a belay loop on a climbing harness, do you double with another ring in the opposite direction or is the screw gate strong enough (will not un-screw, and hold weight)?
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>Also what mallion rapide do others like best for this situation, half moon, oval, or others.</o:p>
Thanks in advance and sorry for change in topic away from canyon harness.

[hank_moon]

what mallion rapide do others like best for this situation, half moon, oval, or others.

See earlier in this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/2rqqdx

[ratagonia]

Woops yes, threading the webbing through the buckles. The webbing seems to "seize up" when wet, and gets thicker as a result, making it very difficult to re-thread. That's what I get for using a climbing harness, I guess.

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Petzl harnesses - will give these a try.

Nicole

You coming out for the ACA Rendez? Maybe I'll bring the hot knife up and we can see about dressing the ends of your webbing better, and teach you "the trick".

Tom

[ratagonia]

I think I want to try adding a ring to my climbing harness. Looks like it would orientate the descending device better.
Ok, consider myself ignorant. When you do add a “half moon� D-ring (mallion rapide) or any other ring (mallion rapide) to a belay loop on a climbing harness, do you double with another ring in the opposite direction or is the screw gate strong enough (will not un-screw, and hold weight)?
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>Also what mallion rapide do others like best for this situation, half moon, oval, or others.</o:p>
Thanks in advance and sorry for change in topic away from canyon harness.

You would use a "half-moon rapide" if you are connecting a caving harness that is designed to assemble with a half-moon rapide, OR you can get nothing else that will do. For adding a 90 degree reorientation to your harness, you would use a large, oval rapide, such as the 10mm aluminum rapide I sell.

Rapides are meant to be used singly. The gate side is pretty much as strong as the solid side, on the properly engineered and qc'd ones. I have not had any problems with the one I use tending to unscrew, but I do keep an eye on it. YMMV.

Tom

[NColey]

You coming out for the ACA Rendez? Maybe I'll bring the hot knife up and we can see about dressing the ends of your webbing better, and teach you "the trick".

Tom

Thanks Tom, but I won't be coming to the ACA Rendez. Just too much work calling my name right now... otherwise I'd be doing Englestead with you all on Wednesday! But say, if you'd like to head on down to Death Valley, Lauren Jefferis and I are hoping to wrangle a group Nov. 10-13. Would love to finally hit a few canyons with you!

Nicole

[mountain man]

See earlier in this thread:

http://tinyurl.com/2rqqdx

It was your earlier comment that prompted me ask about the other rapides.

Agains thanks all for the comments.

[rcwild]

Pictured here is a Yates Big Wall harness. Designed with extra wide and padded belt and leg loops, anticipating long periods of time hanging in harness. Big wall harnesses also include a variety of gear loops to accommodate gear. Additional gear may be carried on over-the-shoulder gear slings.

[rcwild]

Typical modern rock climbing harnesses are designed to be light and provide maximum freedom of movement. Designed to be weighted occasionally when being lowered or rappelling from a climb and during a fall.

Adequate gear loops are required to carry quickdraws and assorted pro.

Rope is tied directly to waistbelt and leg loop with rethreaded figure eight. Vertical belay loop used for belaying and rappelling.

[rcwild]

Rope work encountered in caving includes rappelling and ascending. Caving harnesses are typically set up with a lateral tie-in point. The harness pictured below requires the use of a D-shaped rapide to connect the opposing loops on the waistbelt. Tie-in point is low, but designed for use with a chest harness or over-the-shoulders sling to hold Croll-type ascender in place.

[rcwild]

Assault (aka tactical) harnesses are used primarily for rappelling. Note lateral tie-in point, in this case a metal ring.

[rcwild]

Harnesses designed for rescue applications typically include wide, padded waistbelts and leg loops. Primarily uses include rappelling. Note lateral tie-in point, in this case a metal ring.

[rcwild]

Harnesses made specifically for canyoneering are designed primarily for rappelling. Note lateral tie-in point. Canyoneering can also involve water slides and squeezing through tight spots. Butt panel is designed to protect wet suits, as well as the back of the waistbelt and leg loops from abrasion.

[rcwild]

Eidelweiss Canyon Harness $130
Camp Eldorado Canyon Harness $90
Petzl Canyon Harness $120

Imlay Scuttle Butt $33
(fits on "most" traditional climbing harnesses)

SL in SLC

Steve, if you want to make a real price comparison, you need to include the price of the "traditional climbing harness".

$45-$50 for harness + $33 for Scuttle Butt + $9 for rapide to orient rappel device correctly = $87+

[SLewis]

Must be a slow day- in some parts?
Price comparisons - that was/is only part of the equation.
The specialty/niche harnesses are pricey; and if they are a one size
fits all, many (including me) don't fit in the wide bottomed heavy rigs.
Folk that do fit and assuming they enjoy the harness, then AOK.

Nylon or duct tape on the back straps is a quick/inexpensive protector;
if one is squeezing, sliding in CP sandstone canyons. Others connect a
scuttle butt to a trad climbing harness; or they use a simple BD Bod or
Alpine Bod and let the harness straps take the abuse.

I've a few of the harnesses with the lateral connect strap. It along with single pull straps on waist and legs, is a feature I enjoy. I know very few canyon travelers that add a $10 link to their loop to adjust the biner/device angle. And the rig I attached my scuttle butt to, the harness originally cost $30 including tax.

I'm not a believer that one harness fits all applications, regardless of which part of the planet one abides. Savvy canyon travelers, don't have to be told this and my note adds nothing really to the conversation. I've used/tried lot's of various harnesses "in canyons." Some I've never seen or tried. Letting the "audience" know about various choices and options is hopefully beneficial. Comments by Rich, Tom, Hank, others; novices can follow their lead. I try, test, lend out lots of canyon gear - and ask for feedback from others. But I don't run a web site, canyon group or organization and I'm not employed by anyone connected to a retail/wholesale "canyon gear" vendor. "Relevant evidence and commentary?": Once again, Rich, Tom, Hank + some others - most hopefully have a comfort level there re "tips."

[rcwild]

Must be a slow day- in some parts?

Actually just getting back on track after several weeks focusing on webmaster tasks.


Price comparisons - that was/is only part of the equation.

All of your other points were made in previous posts. Your price comparison part of the equation was incomplete and remained unanswered. Like I said, just catching up.

My primary point remains unchanged. For anyone to suggest that one type of harness will be perfect or even "best" for all/most people in all canyons is silly. You and I are shaped different. What works and is comfortable for you may suck for me. What works for the types of techniques you use may suck for my applications. What works well when turning sideways to squeeze through a tight slot may not work well at all for a flowing canyon with lots of water slides. Etc. Etc.

The goal of this forum is to educate – to make sure people are aware of all different types of harnesses, rappelling devices, ropes, etc., explain the pros and cautions, provide appropriate safety warnings – so people can make the decision that is best for them.

[bashfulbob]

I have been looking for a harness that has a high tie in point, double back buckles, a decent amount of padding, is reasonably light and is not a one size fits all. Looked at the Petzl canyon harness and it is a one size fits all, but has the other goodies I was looking for.

Make a long story short ended up with a Petzl Aspir which had everything I was looking for. And when you added a scuttle butt and you have a very nice rig.

For you price conscious folks the harness and scuttle butt comes in for under a $100.


Bob

[shagdeuce]

I'm looking to pick up a new harness. It looks like it has been a while since a harness review has been posted. Any recommendations? It doesn't look like a ton has changed...the Petzl Aspir still looks like it is a strong choice...

[abarbosa]

I'm looking to pick up a new harness. It looks like it has been a while since a harness review has been posted. Any recommendations? It doesn't look like a ton has changed...the Petzl Aspir still looks like it is a strong choice...

To facilitate an appropriate answer from the ACA members, I believe that is required that you mention what is the activity that you are going to perform with the harness.

Climbing, Canyoneering, caving, dry rappels, … ?

Regards

[shagdeuce]

To facilitate an appropriate answer from the ACA members, I believe that is required that you mention what is the activity that you are going to perform with the harness.

Climbing, Canyoneering, caving, dry rappels, … ?

Regards

Mainly canyoneering. It would be nice to be able to use it for climbing occasionally, but I go climbing so infrequently these days that I may be willing to commit to one tailored to canyoneering (if the benefits of a canyoneering harness draw me that way).

[charlybldr]

I'm looking to pick up a new harness. It looks like it has been a while since a harness review has been posted. Any recommendations? It doesn't look like a ton has changed...the Petzl Aspir still looks like it is a strong choice...

I've been using the Aspir for a couple of years now and like it a lot. It is comfortable, lightweight and has a couple of gear loops. Not too many, just enough.

I used to use the old Petzl Canyon. I really liked the orientation of the primary attachment D ring (or loop in the case of the Aspir) rather than a rock climbing harness belay loop. And I liked the vinyl butt protector. But I didn't like the way the webbing on the old Canyon would bunch up. When this would happen support around the waist was pretty much non-existent. Similar to its gear loops, the Aspir has "just enough" padding without being too heavy or bulky. And I find this to be quite comfortable. (BTW my size 32" waist requires fitting a size 2.)

The new Petzl Canyon is a bit beefier = more padding/more supportive and comes with a vinyl butt protector. Still reasonably lightweight and I expect a bit more comfortable. Probably wouldn't want to rock climb in it though. Anybody out there use this harness?

So I guess it depends on how light you want to go.

[rcwild]

The new Petzl Canyon is much much more comfortable than the old one.

And I really appreciate the butt protector. It's black, which makes my ass look slimmer.

[hank_moon]

The new Petzl Canyon is much much more comfortable than the old one.

meaning...it's actually comfortable instead of torturous to wear. The webbing no longer bunches, either. Deluxe, I say. Class C only, though - too bulky for most desert stuff. I haven't used mine since a fantastic PNW trip w/Charly a few years back (the man himself, below)

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_U4PA6-Bou7k/RkSgnEeH4kI/AAAAAAAAC2s/R7jf9NxrbUo/s400/NW_JULY06%20091.jpg

[DoctorFeelGood]

I've tried out several canyoning harness and the one that i've liked the most was the Petzl Canyon, and chose to buy it, i thought it was the best, and it was...:


http://www.adventureropegear.com/cart/images/petzl_canyon_sm.jpg


That was until a friend of mine lent me is german built harness the Edelrid Iguazu!
It's a little bit more expensive, but it worths every cents extra!
And no doubt it will be my next canyoning harness

http://www.abenteuershop.at/images/edelrid_iguazu.jpg

[rcwild]

That was until a friend of mine lent me is german built harness the Edelrid Iguazu! It's a little bit more expensive, but it worths every cents extra! And no doubt it will be my next canyoning harness.

I have an Iguazu. It is an excellent harness. Unfortunately, I have not been able to convince Edelrid that there is a market big enough in the U.S. for them to carry it here. Maybe soon.

[bjp]

I really enjoy the easy, self-locking buckles on my current harness (as opposed to the buckles where the webbing needs to be double-backed through the buckle), not only for ease in adjusting tightness and putting the harness on, but also because it's nice to know I can't possibly screw up catastrophically, forget to double-back the webbing and have the webbing come off the buckle. However, after looking at the various seat protector designs (including Tom's description of the Scuttle Butt), it seems like maybe this feature is fundamentally incompatible with a seat protector since the seat protector needs the leg loops to open entirely.

Does there exist a harness that has three easy buckles (waist + leg loops) AND can accommodate a seat protector?

[charlybldr]

A number of manufacturers make a simple, webbing, one size fits all, three buckle harness that would work. Here's one from Petzl.

http://www.petzl.com/us/outdoor/mountaineering-and-climbing-harnesses-0/pandion

A harness like this would easily accept a Scuttle Butt but unfortunately lacks padding at the waist.

[bjp]

Thanks, that looks like a good solution as long as the webbing doesn't have sewn tabs at the ends to prevent it from coming out of the buckle (like my current harness does). Also, do you know the correct terminology relating to "DoubleBack" and "double back"? The Pandion seems to have the type of buckles I'm looking for -- the give away is that the pictures show both sides of the buckle as being exposed rather than one side of the buckle covered up when the webbing double backs through it. However, the terminology seems misleading; I would describe the type of buckles I'm *not* looking for as the ones where the webbing doubles back through the buckle (so you have to feed webbing through a slot three times). If the buckles I'm looking for are DoubleBack (as advertised on the Pandion), what are the buckles I'm trying to avoid called?

[hank_moon]

"DoubleBack" is a trade name for Petzl's "self-locking" harness buckles.

You are trying to avoid a "double pass" or "friction" buckle (if I understand correctly)....

[ratagonia]

Thanks, that looks like a good solution as long as the webbing doesn't have sewn tabs at the ends to prevent it from coming out of the buckle (like my current harness does).

Actually, you are probably ONLY looking for a harness with the sewn tabs at the end, which indicates an "easy" buckle. On the Petzl buckles, there is a large enough opening that the tripled over and sewn ends can be pulled out of the buckle (when not under tension); so that other things can be threaded on there.

A traditional "difficult" buckle would have no sewn-over end, or it would not fit tightly in the slots.

Perhaps you current buckle is the worst of both worlds - sewn over tab, and buckle too tight to get the webbing out, even when not under tension.

Tom

[hank_moon]

post deleted by author

[shagdeuce]

Actually, you are probably ONLY looking for a harness with the sewn tabs at the end, which indicates an "easy" buckle. On the Petzl buckles, there is a large enough opening that the tripled over and sewn ends can be pulled out of the buckle (when not under tension); so that other things can be threaded on there.

This past week, I found a tremendous deal on a Singing Rock Balance II harness (http://www.rei.com/product/789866 - although I paid much less), so I purchased it figuring it would be a good spare if I decided to go with a canyoneering-specific harness in the future. The harness has "rock and lock" buckles similar to what Petzl is apparently calling DoubleBack buckles. I really like the feature although I found one disadvantage while descending the 100' rap down Birch Hollow this past weekend. Towards the end of the rappel, although it was not needed, I decided to try threading the break side through a leg loop biner to add more friction. I threaded everything through and pulled up on the rope only for the "rock and lock" leg buckle to immediately release all the way up to the sewn tabs. Needless to say, it was not the most comforting experience of my life. I think there may be a way to set the biner behind the buckle to avoid this situation, but I wasn't hip on experimentation after that point. I'll try it out next time out.

[FredinUtah]

It appears that Black Diamond calls it a Speed Adjust. This harness is very comfortable & has the buckles that do not need to doubled back. They also open all the way, which is how I usually put the harness on as my personal preference is to wrap the harness around my waist & buckle it rather than pull it up like a pair of pants. I bought this at REI as a close out for $39.00. I have not actually put the seat on this harness as I have now dedicated harnesses for climbing & for canyons. It should accept one with no problem as all of the buckles can be opened & the leg loop supports on the back can be removed for installation.

Black Diamond Focus SA (Speed Adjust) harness http://www.rei.com/product/767356

[hank_moon]

It appears that Black Diamond calls it a Speed Adjust. This harness is very comfortable & has the buckles that do not need to doubled back. They also open all the way, which is how I usually put the harness on as my personal preference is to wrap the harness around my waist & buckle it rather than pull it up like a pair of pants. I bought this at REI as a close out for $39.00. I have not actually put the seat on this harness as I have now dedicated harnesses for climbing & for canyons. It should accept one with no problem as all of the buckles can be opened & the leg loop supports on the back can be removed for installation.

Black Diamond Focus SA (Speed Adjust) harness http://www.rei.com/product/767356

Again, it is worth noting that the buckles on all Petzl harnesses can be opened completely for seat installation. I am not sure about other brands, but it would seem odd to make a permanently closed harness, so I'm betting the buckles can be completely undone on any brand. Of course, the lack of sewn tabs on the BD harness makes this process easier. BD seem to have addressed the problem of buckle slippage by adding a lot of excess webbing in lieu of sewn tabs.

[prometheus]

by luck I stumbled upon a harness that to date is working pretty good for me, the cmc ranger. pretty lite and pretty padded for those who are cushionly challenged. Working my way up to more technical canyons but so far it is holding up real well and I tend to be real rough on gear. Kinda wondering if anyone knows if a scuttlebutt would fit this harness? In the Jug and the Grotto in the salome wilderness in AZ this harness was comfortable to wear all day and never was a hassle to rock hop or swim in, with the added full strength rear loop it is a nice place to attach an edge limiting lanyard. Any comments on this harness, I know it was kinda costly at 110 without a butt protector but I am most happy with it at this time.

[smorga]

by luck I stumbled upon a harness that to date is working pretty good for me, the cmc ranger. pretty lite and pretty padded for those who are cushionly challenged. Working my way up to more technical canyons but so far it is holding up real well and I tend to be real rough on gear. Kinda wondering if anyone knows if a scuttlebutt would fit this harness? In the Jug and the Grotto in the salome wilderness in AZ this harness was comfortable to wear all day and never was a hassle to rock hop or swim in, with the added full strength rear loop it is a nice place to attach an edge limiting lanyard. Any comments on this harness, I know it was kinda costly at 110 without a butt protector but I am most happy with it at this time.

Looks comfortable. Does it hold a lot of water?

[rcwild]

Kinda wondering if anyone knows if a scuttlebutt would fit this harness?

If you are asking about the Imlay Scuttlebutt, the only issue is whether or not your leg loop buckles can be completely disconnected so you can thread the loops of your harness through the bottom sleeves of the Scuttlebutt ... AND how wide the sleeves are. 2" webbing fits through the sleeves. Not sure how wide and thick your leg loops are. Contact Tom and ask him.

[prometheus]

Looks comfortable. Does it hold a lot of water?

to be honest it is hard to tell, my gear its by no means light weight but I can say after playing in the water of "the jug" I didn't notice much weight gain after I unplugged the custom grommet holes in my camelbak and let it drain

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[prometheus]

Thanks again Rich, I will look into that